Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[hdugger]

I believe I remember the exchange. Sharon had asked yet another conservative treatment parent to post their xrays (was it Tom? was it Flerc?) and that person had *responded* by asking her if she could post hers.

But that's still not the point I'm trying to make

Patient after patients posts their happy results of surgery, and we congratulate them. The first patient I've seen in months from Clear posts their happy results and they are asked, without friendly greeting, without so much as a how-de-doo:

* (a second time) if their surgeon has measured it
* if they can post their xrays

as a *greeting*. As their first, "Hey, welcome to our forum"

Questions:

- Do you think that person will feel as welcomed, as safe, as at home as the surgery patient who has been roundly welcome and congratulated by everyone?
- Do you think that person will be as likely to come back, to post again, to give updates?

and, I guess,

- If you don't think they'll feel as welcome or be as likely to come back, does that bother you?

[Pooka1]

- If you don't think they'll feel as welcome or be as likely to come back, does that bother you?

Anyone who doesn't understand making claims should be accompanied with evidence can't contribute in a meaningful way.

Do you think Martha Hawes, Research Scientist, whose entire career is evidence-based research, would be offended at being asked to show her radiographs? Did she really even need to be asked to put them in her publications on her case? Would the thought even cross her mind NOT to include them in her publications?

Your comments on this point are well beyond bizarre.

Are conservative treatments a religion? Those are the only people who ever take offense at being asked to provide evidence. Don't conservative treatments claim to be science?

Is that the real reason conservative treatment patients have left? Being asked to show evidence for their claims?

Why do we still have surgery?

If cut do we not bleed?

Hello?

[hdugger]

For Marie, Rohrer, Jess and anyone else who feels that it's unkind to talk about Pooka's posting patterns in this forum, I give re-post this sentence, posted to a newcomer to the forum.

"Is there any reason to suggest radiographs are NOT necessary in helping people decide? Are you suggesting people are trying to hide something???"

I'm going to ask you explicitly for your approval.

Do you think that a parent, brand new to the forum, who has posted a very calm reasoned post about her daughter's treatment and (measured) success should have to prove (I'm going to shout here - cover your ears) THAT SHE IS NOT HIDING SOMETHING BY NOT POSTING HER XRAYS!!!

Yes/No. Thumbs up, thumbs down. You are either fighting for Pooka's right to make this demand, or you are not.

[Pooka1]

"Is there any reason to suggest radiographs are NOT necessary in helping people decide? Are you suggesting people are trying to hide something???"

This question was clearly directed at Hdugger, not the parent, and Hdugger knows it.

And what is Hdugger's answer? Does she or does she NOT think people are hiding things so that it becomes inappropriate to ask for evidence?

Just to be clear, that last line I typed was directed at HDugger, NOT a random parent. Can't be too careful.

I don't think there is a single parent trying to hide a damn thing. I think there might be some play in what they are being told by alternative treatment providers though. There is even some play in what surgeons tell patients (viz Concerned Dad's realization that his daughter's radiographs were being read in an irrationally exuberant fashion down Montreal way).

[hdugger]

Anyone who doesn't understand making claims should be accompanied with evidence can't contribute in a meaningful way.

Do you think Martha Hawes, Research Scientist, whose entire career is evidence-based research, would be offended at being asked to show her radiographs? Did she really even need to be asked to put them in her publications on her case? Would the thought even cross her mind NOT to include them in her publications?

Your comments on this point are well beyond bizarre.

Are conservative treatments a religion? Those are the only people who ever take offense at being asked to provide evidence. Don't conservative treatments claim to be science?

Is that the real reason conservative treatment patients have left? Being asked to show evidence for their claims?

Why do we still have surgery?

If cut do we not bleed?

Hello?

I'm just going to let that float in the air for a second.

I'm not even going to try to untangle all of the threads. My head is spinning.

Published report = first post by parent on forum.

Something about religion. Not sure why it's there.

Demanding an xray before parent is allowed to post = normal behavior.

Not wanting to provide an xray in order to be able to post = not sure. Religion? Lack of scientific thinking? No, not sure.

Question about why we still have surgery. Not sure what that means.

Cutting bleeding.

A greeting.

No, can't make sense of it. All spinning so fast.

[Pooka1]

Well I am still in shock from the bizarrality of your claim that asking someone who is making a claim to show evidence is ever inappropriate. If my point was unclear then I apologize but I was typing and trying to hold the pieces of my head together lest they fly apart.

Are conservative treatments a religion and therefore they must take offense at having to show proof or are they a science wherein their sole role and goal is to show proof to make their case?

Which is it?

Thanks.

[Pooka1]

Do people paying thousands of dollars to alternative treatment purveyors think they are buying science or religion?

I should say it is not really the parent making the claim of a reduced curve. It is CLEAR. The parent is innocently repeating it.

[hdugger]

I have no idea what this has to do with science and religion, but I'm just going to make a list of the emotionally-charged words and phrases, and then I'll get to my response:

bizarrality
Are conservative treatments a religion
take offense at having to show proof

Again, not sure what all of that has to do with anything.

My response to what I think you're asking, after I get past all that.

No, I do not believe any parent on this forum has an *obligation* to *prove to you* any of their results. People come on here to talk about their kids or themselves. They're looking for support, or information, of just someone who might understand what they're going through. It's not science, religion, or whatever all of that stuff was in your first post. It's just someone who wants to talk about their experience with scoliosis.

Either they are welcomed into the forum in the same way that everyone else is. Either we make a place for them in exactly the same way we make a place for everyone else. Or someone has to explain to me why it is right and proper that we do not. Someone has to explain to me why some mother coming to this forum gets the most unfriendly greeting I've seen in months just because *your* curiosity is not satisfied.

[Pooka1]

No, I do not believe any parent on this forum has an *obligation* to *prove to you* any of their results.

Nor do I. At least we agree on that.

But of course that wasn't the question.

[hdugger]

Then restate your question, because I didn't see anything else there. I responded to this "bizarrality of your claim that asking someone who is making a claim to show evidence is ever inappropriate"

[Pooka1]

Then restate your question, because I didn't see anything else there.

The question was why isn't bizarrality a word when it is required for certain discussions?

[hdugger]

Ah, a joke. So, just post when you want to restate the question again so that I can answer. I'm posting lightly, but I don't find any of this funny.

[flerc]

I want to make it abundantly clear that I don't want anyone horning in on my "immoral" gig.

Yes, obviously you are doing something immoral here.. certainly it could not be something difficult to do for someone dishonest as you showed to be.

[Pooka1]

Given that surgeons in certain northern cities can be irrationally exuberant in reading radiographs, I think neither of us would be shocked if curve measurements on radiographs from some alternative treatment purveyors were not necessarily quite so accurate. Here I could also reference Woggon's original paper on the method CLEAR uses.

Anyway. Given that, wouldn't you advocate that parents ALSO work with surgeons in reading radiographs?

And given that, wouldn't it be good if parent realized they need to be always working with a surgeon in case the alternative treatment wasn't quite working up to snuff or stopped working or the child realized they didn't want to do PT for the rest of their life and meanwhile the child might be missing other treatment windows or, worse, has to have a longer fusion, perhaps into the lumbar from the delay?

We are not surgeons and can't be giving out Cobb angle readings to each other. But some can eyeball differences. So instead of saying all that, I suggested she post the radiographs. You took offense and I cannot identify a single rational reason for your doing so. So I speculated on one. If that is the wrong one then what is the right one?

[Pooka1]

I will throw myself on my sword about one thing... the parent is an innocent bystander in all this and I was not artful in making that clear (no pun intended). Obviously the issue is the validity of the Cob angle readings and any clams made about how long the results are supposed to last. The parent is reporting all this information accurately as told to her. That's not the issue.