Setting the Record Straight

[Pooka1]

i fully agree with everything you said except i don't agree that all surgeons take an oath to be ethical.

Which surgeons don't?

Can you list their names?

[MissEmmyF]

Which surgeons don't?

Can you list their names?

no, of course not. how would that even be possible?

[Pooka1]

no, of course not. how would that even be possible?

Then how do you know they didn't take the Hippocratic oath?

All licensed doctors that the oath.

[MissEmmyF]

Then how do you know they didn't take the hippocratic oath?

obviously i don't know...i just find it improbable that every single surgeon on the face of the planet has taken a hippocratic oath.

[Pooka1]

obviously i don't know...i just find it improbable that every single surgeon on the face of the planet has taken a hippocratic oath.

Okay but I had no idea were weren't confining the discussion to licensed doctors.

[MissEmmyF]

All licensed doctors that the oath.

even if they have, it doesn't mean they're automatically all ethical.

[Pooka1]

even if they have, it doesn't mean they're automatically all ethical.

Yes there are certainly doctors sued successfully for malpractice. But they are rare. That's one thing folks should research when selecting a surgeon.

At the other end, some of these guys are artists who literally give folks back their life and future like in the case of my daughter.

[MissEmmyF]

Yes there are certainly doctors sued successfully for malpractice. But they are rare. That's one thing folks should research when selecting a surgeon.

At the other end, some of these guys are artists who literally give folks back their life and future like in the case of my daughter.

i agree, i'm not sure how this thread got so off topic.

[Pooka1]

i agree, i'm not sure how this thread got so off topic.

I'm not sure this thread started with a defined topic.

[LindaRacine]

Hi MissEmmyF....

I can find plenty of examples of honest, helpful discussion in the non-surgical forum, where people say "good luck." Here's one example:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6858

Honestly, it really only gets contentious when false claims are made.

And, while in general, there aren't a lot of people debating the surgery issue, there are certainly some. And, there are plenty of outcome studies showing the effectiveness of surgery.

I'm relatively certain that all participants in these forums want everyone to be out of pain. Some of us just want to be certain that the charlatans making false claims don't go unchallenged. Believe me when I say that I suspect you wouldn't want to live in a world where the only way you could find out that something didn't work, was to try it out. When I'm investigating something, I like hearing what others say about it, both good and bad.

By the way, I spent more than $5,000 (out of my pocket, since chiropractic treatments weren't covered by insurance at that time) on chiropractic treatments, before I even saw my first surgeon. Although he never told me he could improve my curves, this chiropractor told me that he could 1) stop progression and 2) get me out of pain. Neither proved to be true. If someone had told me when I started treatment, that I shouldn't have to invest $5,000 to know whether it would work, I hope I would have at least listened.

Regards,
Linda

[Qikdraw]

Which surgeons don't?

Can you list their names?

While you can't always list names, you have certainly heard stories of doctors who care more about the money they get from surgery than helping the patient with another treatment.

My neighbours were hit by their doctor. She was pregnant and the doctor made a claim of some problem with the baby, the nurses told my neighbours they should get another opinion because the doctor was saying he needed to do a C section, they didn't. So after the C section another doctor looks at the baby and finds no sign of what their doctor claimed. The hospital had two people come to them asking if they are want to file charges against the doctor for a misdiagnosis, they never did. Although they did find out that their doctor prefers C sections so he doesnt have to wait for the baby to come out.

My wife & I, plus all our neighbours, told them they should go after the doctor for it, he obviosly isn't there for the health of the patient or babies, but for the money he makes. We said that if you're not going to sue, at least get the doctor out of the hospital, how many other women is he going to scar up because he doesn't want to wait?

Not all doctors are ethical.

[MissEmmyF]

Hi MissEmmyF....

I can find plenty of examples of honest, helpful discussion in the non-surgical forum, where people say "good luck." Here's one example:

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6858

Honestly, it really only gets contentious when false claims are made.

And, while in general, there aren't a lot of people debating the surgery issue, there are certainly some. And, there are plenty of outcome studies showing the effectiveness of surgery.

I'm relatively certain that all participants in these forums want everyone to be out of pain. Some of us just want to be certain that the charlatans making false claims don't go unchallenged. Believe me when I say that I suspect you wouldn't want to live in a world where the only way you could find out that something didn't work, was to try it out. When I'm investigating something, I like hearing what others say about it, both good and bad.

By the way, I spent more than $5,000 (out of my pocket, since chiropractic treatments weren't covered by insurance at that time) on chiropractic treatments, before I even saw my first surgeon. Although he never told me he could improve my curves, this chiropractor told me that he could 1) stop progression and 2) get me out of pain. Neither proved to be true. If someone had told me when I started treatment, that I shouldn't have to invest $5,000 to know whether it would work, I hope I would have at least listened.

Regards,
Linda

I totally agree...I've spent a lot of money on alternative therapies too. It's even more frustrating when all you ultimately want is pain control (not a reduction in the curve (although that would be nice!)), and you can't even get that consistently! I've tried it all and would get so frustrated. Surgery wasn't an option for me (and I wouldn't have wanted it anyway), everything else was failing, and there was literally nothing else I could do except for explore more alternative methods or become complacent and most likely have my pain level get worse. It's a tough spot to be in as I'm sure you all know. Hopefully the alternative method I've decided to explore now will give me the pain relief I desire.

But, I guess my point is I don't think you hear enough on this forum about problems relating to scoliosis surgery. Yes, sometimes it's the only option and therefore it may seem like a "good" option, but there's still a lot wrong with it. You have a huge recovery process, risk of many complications, loss of flexibility, the rest of your vertebrae above and below the fusion are now way more susceptible to problems, there's a good chance you'll have problems with your fusion later on in life, etc. I'm not saying "hey, skip the surgery, there's a great alternative that can straighten your spine"...it's just sad that that's the only option in many cases.

[CHRIS WBS]

But, I guess my point is I don't think you hear enough on this forum about problems relating to scoliosis surgery.

I have to disagree, MissEmmyF. I’ve heard plenty here…everything from paralysis to the tragic death of a young mother from Texas. I mulled over surgery for nearly three years. Spines are not meant to be fused. But they’re not meant to be deformed and twisted either. I had to decide which would offer me a better quality of life going forward – surgery to stop a progressive curve or do nothing. I would have loved to avoid surgery for all the reasons you mention, but when the onslaught of symptoms caused by a collapsing spine began to emerge, I realized that surgery was the only option I had to stabilize my spine. But I have no problem with anyone seeking an alternative treatment. If I felt confident enough that there was one out there, I would probably have pursued it myself.

[mamamax]

i fully agree with everything you said except i don't agree that all surgeons take an oath to be ethical.

Hi Emmy - the Hippocratic Oath was abandoned in the 70's by many American medical schools (for an alternate pledge like the Oath or Prayer of Maimonides.. The links below will give you plenty of information the next time you're just sitting around with your friends discussing such things. An eye opener (the true information regarding this oath).

References:

http://www.medword.com/hippocrates.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocr...dern_relevance

[mamamax]

Cutting Edge of Non Surgical Methods

Statements claiming that scoliosis cannot be stabilized or reversed without bracing or surgery are not, and never have been, supported by scientific data. On the contrary … long-standing basic and clinical research results documented in reputable medical journals are consistent with the hypothesis that scoliosis can be reduced if not eliminated using nonsurgical approaches.

Realistic opportunities to examine the role of exercise in treatment of scoliosis are available for the first time in history. A growing body of evidence from independent sources is consistent with the hypothesis that exercise-based approaches can be used effectively to reverse the signs and symptoms of spinal deformity and to prevent progression in children and adults.

The above statements seem like outlandish claims void of evidence and/or proof, don't they?

Only - they are not.

Those not familiar with the evidence which would support such statements, certainly may find the statements to be wild and outlandish claims void of evidence and/or proof. The statements however, are based upon over 10,000 research publications and other recognized research data compiled by the author who has also written research articles with Joseph O’Brien, and who is well respected in both research and medical communities internationally. Her name is Dr. Martha Hawes.

Many are aware of the things she has observed, written about, and experienced. It's all fairly new to me however – and i'm glad to be playing catch up rather than remaining in the dark ages.

No one is claiming of course, that any cobb angle reduction by any means (surgical or non surgical) is permanent or that such reduction (surgical or non surgical) does not require some sort of care, life style changes, and/or maintenance.

Those of us adults searching non surgical treatment for our conditions would do well to learn what Martha and many other doctors, researchers, and scientists have been gathering and speaking about for over seven years. Our paths are different - some choose a bracing system like none other - some choose Schroth (reported to even help surgical patients with pain) - others like myself combine both. I cannot wait to see what the next decade may bring in all these areas.

We are collectively in this boat together (the ship called Remedy) – individually our conditions and remedies are unique requiring sometimes more than just one technique. Wonderful it is - that we can all share what we learn along the way, as our paths may be quite varied and yet our desired destinations much the same.


References:

Paragraph #1 (excerpt)
Scoliosis and the Human Spine
Introduction by Martha Hawes
http://www.ctds.info/scoliosis_treatment.html

Paragraph #2 (excerpt)
The use of exercises in the treatment of scoliosis:
an Evidence based critical review of the literature
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...28032000159202
Martha Hawes

Book Available Here:
http://www.scoliosis.org/store/books.php

The transformation of spinal curvature into spinal deformity:
pathological processes and implications for treatment
Martha C Hawes and Joseph P O'Brien
Scoliosis. 2006; 1: 3.
Published online 2006 March 31. doi: 10.1186/1748-7161-1-3.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1459276

For an article on Dr. Hawes scoliosis including before and after x-ray images and pictures of her back, see the National Scoliosis Foundation's Spring, 2002 newsletter.