Quackwatch and Schroth

[LindaRacine]

So what does this say about treatment for people with this kind of scoliosis? I think it was Pooka1 who mentioned a long while back that someone totally corrected under general anesthesia? I suppose you could brace them, but they'd have to be braced FOREVER if there were an underlying connective tissue disorder. Maybe that's why they took both kinds of x-ray when I was a kid?

Sharon was talking about a UCSF patient from many years ago. There was no need to brace her. She was woken up, probably given a PT prescription, and walked away.

[rohrer01]

How can you "exercise" a ligament? They are what hold bone to bone. If they are like rubber bands, it's because the make-up of them has the wrong ratio of proteins, there's no fixing that. I can see strengthening muscles to help with some things. But the primary function of muscles are to enable us to move. Don't get me wrong, muscles DO give the body support, but pretty atrophied people can still walk and move normally. The tendons attach our muscles to our bones, so if the tendon is stretchy, too, that would also create a problem. You can't just go in and fix a faulty mixture of proteins. Muscles can only do so much. It also seems logical to me that if too much muscle mass were obtained it could create more weight, giving gravity a chance to pull harder on the faulty ligaments. Remember there is no attachment of muscle to ligament, so the ligaments are basically on their own.

I do have a personal example. It may show that muscle strength "may" help with some areas. I have a HAGL lesion in my shoulder. That is where the humeral ligament is completely ripped off the long head the the humerus (arm bone) where it goes into the shoulder socket. I have to do shoulder strengthening exercises to "hopefully" give my shoulder support and keep it from dislocating. However, there are two more humeral ligament heads that are still attached. Even so, I have to be very careful not to move my arm in certain ways, otherwise it may dislocate. That's what happened to me last year. All of the dislocations caused my shoulder to protect itself and fill up with scar tissue which made it impossible for me to move my arm very much at all. Now that this is "fixed", I'm at risk for more dislocations. So far I haven't dislocated it because I'm very careful. But the muscle strengthening isn't a cure. If I were to get atrophy in those muscles for some reason I'd be right back to dislocating again.

I don't know how you could really apply this to the spine, though. There are so many tiny muscles surrounding the spine. Exercising those muscles would mean you would have to contract them which would bend you in different ways. This bending may be counterproductive to the ligament issue since the ligaments and muscles would have to be stretchy enough to allow contraction of the muscles on the opposite side. It's not like doing bicep curls where you can build a super huge bicep. People with super huge biceps often can't straighten their arms out to the degree of people with smaller ones. The muscle bulk prevents hyper-extension. It would be more like if the normal action of the elbow allowed you to curl your arm both forward AND backward. How would you stabilize the ligaments in the elbow in that case? The spine bends in a 360^o rotation. That's a tough one to overcome. Maybe you could work in one plane only, but then I could see the problem cropping back up in another plane. It would be like a dog chasing its tail.

Am I making any sense?

[flerc]

So what does this say about treatment for people with this kind of scoliosis? I think it was Pooka1 who mentioned a long while back that someone totally corrected under general anesthesia? I suppose you could brace them, but they'd have to be braced FOREVER if there were an underlying connective tissue disorder. Maybe that's why they took both kinds of x-ray when I was a kid?

Who knows? Cerrtainly I don't believe that kind of disorder are always present in every case with a great flexibility. Anyway, Kevin_mc said me in one thread about some kind of exercises getting stronger ligaments and Schroth exercises seems to get higher tone in muscles of the convex side. Also some people (Pilates?) talk about an ‘abdominal brace’ what certainly has much logic. But surely a great understanding about physiology and anatomy would be needed to fully understand this issue. It seems to be scattered all the knowledge needed and nobody is trying to join it.

[flerc]

Most peoples' curves flatten out somewhat when the patient lies supine. It's also hysterical or functional scoliosis if the curves flatten completely.

I don’t understand if it’s only a definition or an useful concept. I have read hysterical scoliosis are those present only in a vertical position and also having not a rotational component, something really strange since any bending in the frontal plane would lead to rotation of vertebrae involved. Also I have read structural curves are the opposite to hysterical ones.
But what if someone having a stiff structural curve, after a treatment get a very much flexible spine, so in the absence of gravity force, all vertebrae are aligned in the frontal plane? Should it also to have not rotation the curve being standing up to be considered an hysterical scoliosis? I suppose they are referring to vertebrae shape, not to flexibility really.

[rohrer01]

Most peoples' curves flatten out somewhat when the patient lies supine. It's also hysterical or functional scoliosis if the curves flatten completely.

So what does this say about treatment for people with this kind of scoliosis? I think it was Pooka1 who mentioned a long while back that someone totally corrected under general anesthesia? I suppose you could brace them, but they'd have to be braced FOREVER if there were an underlying connective tissue disorder. Maybe that's why they took both kinds of x-ray when I was a kid?

[mariaf]

Here is some info on Peyton Manning's surgeries. You can google and find more. Yes, he is one of the good guys, as Maria said. I am one of a bunch of Hoosiers that were so disappointed when the Colts dropped him, and many of us end up rooting for the Colts AND Peyton with the Broncos, just out of loyalty. Last night's game was such a series of unfortunate events, but again, Peyton dealt with the public and the reporters in a class-act way.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...on-of-the-neck

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/peyton-...iacontentstory

Two very interesting articles - thanks for sharing them.

Peyton has always been a class act.

We are big sports fans in my house - and right or wrong, I often have a hard time rooting for some of these guys who have had serious off-the-field issues - or who I know are just not good, decent people. Some would say that I should put that aside, they are not role models, etc. Maybe they're right, but as a fan, I can also root for whoever I choose to.

For instance, I happen to be a Mets fan, but one of my favorite athletes in any sport is Mariano Rivera. He is just a class act. Like most Mets fans, I have no particular love for the Yankees, but I could never root against Mariano. I actually cried when he got hurt a couple of years ago.

Anyway, sorry for getting sidetracked......

[jrnyc]

thanks Maria....
they grow so fast....

i cannot imagine the violent hits that football players take
and not damaging some parts of the neck and spine....
or making existing damage worse.

jess

[LindaRacine]

All of your neck rotation comes from the occiput to C2, so a 1 level ACDF below that level would have almost no effect on rotation.

[LindaRacine]

Most peoples' curves flatten out somewhat when the patient lies supine. It's also hysterical or functional scoliosis if the curves flatten completely.

[flerc]

Since it has stopped in my late teens, I would think that the only reason my curves were to progress in the future would be because of degenerative discs or vertebrae

I would not be so sure. A logic explanation is that growth is a force which may change for itself the spine shape, leading the curve to increase, so when that force stop in adulthood, is reasonable to hope progression to stop too.
But when you are in a vertical position, you may see the gravity force pusshing the apex of your curve toward the convex side, so even if discs and vertebrae would be in a perfect state,.. wich is the force opposing to the gravity force? of course must to be some body tissue, I don't know which, but probably it is not enough strong and then the apex begin to move toward the convex side and of course the curve begin to increase.

[flerc]

??? I have never asked your opinion

I'm understanding you have interpreted this

Do you see how much impossible is to talk with Pooka1 saying what she use to say?.

as a question. At least in my country is very common to say 'Do you see...?' when we really are wanting to say 'You can see now..!' It was an affirmation.. showing a fact.

[Susie*Bee]

Here is some info on Peyton Manning's surgeries. You can google and find more. Yes, he is one of the good guys, as Maria said. I am one of a bunch of Hoosiers that were so disappointed when the Colts dropped him, and many of us end up rooting for the Colts AND Peyton with the Broncos, just out of loyalty. Last night's game was such a series of unfortunate events, but again, Peyton dealt with the public and the reporters in a class-act way.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...on-of-the-neck

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/peyton-...iacontentstory

[mariaf]

Hey Jess,

I was just thinking of you the other day. HAPPY 7TH BIRTHDAY SPARKY!!! Time flies, doesn't it? I can't believe Jackie will be 5 in June!

Yes, that's Peyton Manning who had the surgeries on his neck. Amazing, huh? Not only about not being able to turn his neck, but also about playing such a violent game following fusion surgery on one's neck. I guess that's why so many people were pulling for him to win yesterday. Well that's one reason - that he's such a great 'comeback' story. He also seems to be one of the good guys.

[jrnyc]

i had bending X rays a few years ago, with Dr Lonner...laying on table....
i was under impression, and i could be wrong, that bending
X rays tell something about flexibility.....
for me, it was a shock to learn that any bending i can still do
is GRAVITY dependent...taking away gravity with a bending X ray
showed me i can barely bend at all anymore, without the assistance
of gravity to pull on me....

i forgot which football player it was....Manning maybe...?
but it was mentioned yesterday that the losing team guy
had "several" operations on his neck... one of them fusion, due
to football injuries, problems, etc....

i thought WOW....i am shocked the guy could ever play football
after that....how does one play football without being able to turn
one's neck....????
i knew a woman who had fusion in her neck...she had to turn her
whole body to look at anyone...her neck could not turn at all....

i don't know anything much about football, but it sounds like that
could be a BIG problem for that game...and most any sport!!!!

jess....and Sparky, just turned 7

[flerc]

??? You asked me to stay out of it between Pooka1 and you. Please, don't drag me into it by asking me my opinion. I try to be friendly to EVERYONE here.

??? I have never asked your opinion, I just only said you I didn’t want to fight against you. Of course you can be all the friendly you may want with her or other people also supporting what she does here, if you want to also be part of what they does, is your decision not mine.