Quackwatch and Schroth

[flerc]

Tonibunny, I'm sorry to hear about your cancer. It's ever something difficult to give advices but I don't feel to be doing something wrong if I tell you that I have some reasons to believe that not only chemotherapy and rays therapies directed only to cancer cells seems to be good but also some not well known scientist products, at least in order to reduce pain. If you want I may say you via PM about 2 of them that I really know.

[Pooka1]

This is what Pooka1 keeps saying about getting proper alignment during a thoracic fusion. If it is properly aligned, the non-structural compensatory lumbar curve will reduce or go away. It doesn't happen immediately, so it must be the muscles working to balance the newly straightened spine. After all, it collapsed to try to balance it. That's what compensatory curves do. However, it is my belief that if a compensatory curve is left too long, like over decades as in my case, then they become structural. This, as my logic would see it, would be due to changes in the discs an even perhaps some wedging from bone remodelling because it has been held like that for so long. This would explain to me at least why my curve became a double thoracic. I can no longer bend out my lower curve. When I try, it hurts and I can't breathe properly.

Actually, with the one kid who was hyper-corrected, her lumbar was straight on radiograph on day four post op. Apparently it is some type of balance issue that kicks in to make the lumbar match the thorax which in her case was now <10 degrees (i.e., "straight"). The other kid's lumbar also approximately matched her corrected thorax on day 4 postop also. So I assume this matching of curves is addressed by the body immediately probably on first standing. Maybe it is viewed as an emergency or crisis such that by day 4 the lumbar already comes to match the corrected thoracic curve.

Now on the second kid with the false double there was a lean that continued to correct and come close to upright over many months and maybe was still correcting after a year. It might still be correcting minutely 4.5 years out now.

I agree with you about the discs being damaged from being out of alignment in compensatory lumbar curves. That is why the collapse cases occur even under sub-surgical thoracic curves in my opinion. Thoracic curves need to be corrected if only to save the lumbar in some cases it seems.

[flerc]

This is what Pooka1 keeps saying about getting proper alignment during a thoracic fusion. If it is properly aligned, the non-structural compensatory lumbar curve will reduce or go away. It doesn't happen immediately, so it must be the muscles working to balance the newly straightened spine. After all, it collapsed to try to balance it. That's what compensatory curves do. However, it is my belief that if a compensatory curve is left too long, like over decades as in my case, then they become structural. This, as my logic would see it, would be due to changes in the discs an even perhaps some wedging from bone remodelling because it has been held like that for so long. This would explain to me at least why my curve became a double thoracic. I can no longer bend out my lower curve. When I try, it hurts and I can't breathe properly.

I know this before entering to this forum for first time.

The daughter of a friend had a bold surgery trying to fix only some thoracic vertebras of her double curve hoping a correction of the lumbar ones.

I suppose surgeons said him chances were not really good because surely the shape was not exactly the indicated to do that kind of surgery.
I haven't the knowledge to understand if really is an unconscious body decision activating muscles (dynamic system) or just only a structural matter, leading muscles and ligaments to be less tight after unscrewing a part of the spine (static system)
But certainly if compensatory curves may be done in adults in the first way, in order to fulfill the three stabilization requirements, probably it's also a dynamic issue.

Sorry if all this chat was absolutely unesful for you, it was not for me, I'm most convinced now my SSS theory was wrong, It is logical but it seems to be some issues I didn't considered in that chat with Kevin,. even I didn't realize the role of abdominal muscles and I thought that getting a 'muscular brace' has nothing to do in order to get a more straight spine. The fact seems to be that greater (and lower?) the curve greater the importance of such kind of brace.
As I think I said you time ago, I believe that you need 'relaxing' therapies, 'the closer to total anesthesia you may find'.
Spain is far from your country too, but there is there a new therapy used for IS based over the discovery that some kind of dystonia is allways present in this kind of scoliosis. It's the first time I heard about a researcher doing something non surgical concrete with his discovery. Probably it would be useful for you too.

Anyway I think that visiting Schroth practicioners is a good idea. As I know they must to be first physiatrist and they have a great knowledge and knowing Schroth, sure they have to have a great scoliosis understanding. If you read the book, you'll know how much scientist this method is.

[flerc]

Flerc,
Your line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. I could not even lift 100kg. I only weigh about 51kg. I am weak. Putting that kind of stress on my spine would probably cripple me. I would NEVER be authorized to lift twice my body weight even IF I could do it. I didn't say that ONLY the upper and lower trapezius would be activated. I'm sure there are MANY more muscles that would be activated by lifting, including the paraspinals. Exactly what good would it do to activate those muscles in a very BAD posture that this much weight would cause? A few years back, I jumped on my nieces trampoline. When I landed that first land it felt like my spine was collapsing and it was excruciating! I never did that again. I will never have a reason to lift that much weight. My husband doesn't even weigh that much if I had to move him in an emergency. No offense, but I feel like you are clutching at straws (meaning you are so desperate to find something that you are being irrational and nonsensical). I mean no insult by that. Language barriers are difficult when we use expressions common to our culture.

Rohrer, I was talking about muscular exercises when I said that, not applying to your case as I said you: ‘Yes, probably as you said in your case it could be a very bad idea to do it because dystonia. But without it, I believe it could be something useful in order to keep the spine straight’.
The next sure is a language barrier and a mistake to talking as I did. We use to say ‘ If you VERB1… then you.. VERNn ‘ when we wants to say ‘If someone VERB1.. then…VERBn’. I was not refering to you, but to someone with IS.
100 kg of course was too much exaggerated, but as I said you ‘Suppose (of course only to show the idea)’
I’m almost sure this is what I said to Kevin (in a more understandable way in a different thread) and he liked the idea. Of course for a IS case, I believe is a good exercise (with lesser weight obvious), I also said him (in that thread) I was worry (and I remain) because my daughter finished the school so she didn’t need to use backpacks any more. Really I’m sure that nobody may say it could be something irrational or nonsensical even I know it may be wrong because something I may be not talking into account, surely unknown for me. But of course, I don't take what you said me as an insult.

I believe this thread about Schroth is not precisely the more indicated for you, since Scroth is seen as a muscular strengthener oriented method and surely having dystonia could not be a good idea. Although it also includes the derotational breathing technique, (this was the Katherina Schroth discovery) and also streching techniques. I don't know if they are managing muscular chains concepts, something I think is necessary in order to get a real stretch.
Surely only abdominal strengthener exercises (but not sit ups) could not be contraindicated for you and sure are good to get a more stable posture and to fight in an indirect way against the lateral gravity force, but I doubt Shroth include that specific kind of exercise.. probably something with balls as Pilates. Exercise over that balls seems to see something very much relaxing.. at least for woman, but again, with something as dystonia it not surprise me if it could be disastrous.
Anyway surely the gravity force is not the problem in your case as sure it is in adult IS with big curves, so geting more resistent tissues, even it could be something good, it would not solve the cause of your problem. Probably something as Eutonia, Gpr Feldenkrais or Qui Gong would be more useful for you.
I believe I said you there is a surgery for dystonia and seems to works. I hope you may find the best for your case!

[rohrer01]

The daughter of a friend had a bold surgery trying to fix only some thoracic vertebras of her double curve hoping a correction of the lumbar ones. He said me that she walked with all her trunk bended to a side (even the head) and he thought that another surgery would be needed, but then her trunk was straight. How could it be possible without muscles action? Ligaments did it?

This is what Pooka1 keeps saying about getting proper alignment during a thoracic fusion. If it is properly aligned, the non-structural compensatory lumbar curve will reduce or go away. It doesn't happen immediately, so it must be the muscles working to balance the newly straightened spine. After all, it collapsed to try to balance it. That's what compensatory curves do. However, it is my belief that if a compensatory curve is left too long, like over decades as in my case, then they become structural. This, as my logic would see it, would be due to changes in the discs an even perhaps some wedging from bone remodelling because it has been held like that for so long. This would explain to me at least why my curve became a double thoracic. I can no longer bend out my lower curve. When I try, it hurts and I can't breathe properly.

[rohrer01]

Tonibunny,
I'm so sad to hear about your cancer and everything else! I hope you beat the heck out of this cancer. That is scary business. They thought I had breast cancer a couple of years ago. I had the biopsy done, NOT fun, and fortunately it was not. I can't imagine being sick from chemo on top of the pain that you are having! I hope you have some good pain meds that don't make you nauseous. I'm truly very sad. ='(

There are a couple more things that you can do for your cervical dystonia. I take baclofen and klonopin for the spasms. I get the trigger point injections, of course, but without steroid. They've shown that they are no more effective with steroid than without. I used to get them with, now I get them without and don't notice any difference. The BIG difference is when you get them without steroid you can get them as often as you feel you need them. Sometimes I go every two weeks. But the other thing you can do is get Botox injections. This actually paralyzes the muscles for a time. I'm allowed to get them every 91 days. I'm not going to sugar coat it, it does hurt, usually not that bad. I had a really bad experience the last time. It was almost more than I could bear. My muscles were SO tight that it was distorting my cervical vertebrae to the point that he could see the vertebral wings protruding under my skin. The drugs, trigger points and Botox aren't a cure, but they keep me going. I was in tears asking the doctor if there were ANYTHING else that they could do for the dystonia. He looked teary eyed himself and said he wished there were but there wasn't. But, since you didn't mention the medication or the Botox, I thought I would inform you. There is also a Cervical Dystonia Foundation.

I have so many strange and progressive things going on with me. They thought for sure it was Myotonic Muscular Dystrophy. I have almost ALL of the symptoms. But my EMG study and muscle biopsy came back negative. The neurologist is baffled as he was sure this is what it was. Now I'm going to see a geneticist. At least that's right up my alley!

Anyway, I know what you mean after that FIRST set of trigger point injections! I felt like I was floating, too! I hadn't been that pain free in I don't even think EVER. I don't get that kind of relief anymore. I don't know why. It gets numbed up pretty well. I'm having spasms that are so deep now that they can't do trigger points on them. It's really scary around my neck and around my clavicles (collar bones). The lung is right there and mine pushes higher up than normal because of my curve. My first rib is actually in my neck. Your curves are corrected to what mine are now. They are almost exactly the same. I have the rib hump thing going on under my left shoulder blade. I get a lot of spasms there. It hurts like mad! I'm starting to get spasms in the front now and it's getting hard to swallow at times. That makes it unpleasant to eat or drink. So far I haven't seriously choked on anything. It usually just doesn't go down all the way. But lately I've had problems with the initial swallow at times. Fortunately I was eating soft food when that first happened.

Flerc,
Your line of reasoning doesn't make any sense. I could not even lift 100kg. I only weigh about 51kg. I am weak. Putting that kind of stress on my spine would probably cripple me. I would NEVER be authorized to lift twice my body weight even IF I could do it. I didn't say that ONLY the upper and lower trapezius would be activated. I'm sure there are MANY more muscles that would be activated by lifting, including the paraspinals. Exactly what good would it do to activate those muscles in a very BAD posture that this much weight would cause? A few years back, I jumped on my nieces trampoline. When I landed that first land it felt like my spine was collapsing and it was excruciating! I never did that again. I will never have a reason to lift that much weight. My husband doesn't even weigh that much if I had to move him in an emergency. No offense, but I feel like you are clutching at straws (meaning you are so desperate to find something that you are being irrational and nonsensical). I mean no insult by that. Language barriers are difficult when we use expressions common to our culture.

[tonibunny]

Rohrer, I'm intrigued by your case as in a lot of ways it is similar to mine, although I had infantile idiopathic scoliosis (now considered to have been caused by EDS, which I was diagnosed with a few years ago in my early 30s). I too have a high left thoracic curve (plus structural lumbar curve - it's a double major) and have had cervical dystonia/permanent muscle spasms mainly invoking my trapezius muscles for as long as I can remember. Those muscles are permanently rock hard. I first sought help for these when I was 18 and I'm 38 now! Nothing works to release them except steroidal trigger-point injections.

My thoracic spine (T1-T12)was fused at the age of ten, my fusion extended to include my lumbar curve at 18 (T1-L3) and I've had the fusion extended down to take care of a badly degenerated disc at the bottom of the fusion and to address sone sagittal balance issues about 5 years ago, so am now fused T1-L4. I still have fairly big residual curves of 45(T) and 35(L) plus I'm still not properly sagitally balanced but things are much better than before. The high thoracic curve caused my left scapula to wing out a huge amount on top of a large, sharp rib prominence, so I have had two thoracoplasty surgeries which have made a great cosmetic improvement compared to how things were before.

I started out with a double-major curve of 62/40+ degrees as a six month old baby so I think I've been very fortunate all things considered! I spent the first ten years of my life in EDF casts and high-profile Milwaukee braces. Before surgery my curves were 80 degrees (T) and 70 degrees (L) with 29 degrees of rotation on the Bunnell Scoliometer (it is still about 18 degrees post-thoracoplasty; it was not possible to gain much more correction as my spine rotates into my rib prominence). Of course, kids today can usually look forward to much better corrections due to modern hardware designs.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I think I understand how you may feel regarding your cervical dystonia/spasms. My back aches a lot but I generally have been able to live with it and apart from the time when my lumbar disc went, it has never stopped me from living a very full and active life. I've always been a keen hill walker, hiker and latterly a cyclist. It would be lovely to not have the constant background "noise" of discomfort though - I became so used to it that I only realised what the absence of pain was after I had nearly twenty trigger point injections to knock out muscle spasms throughout my back (but mainly concentrated in my neck). The sudden feeling of being comfortable made me feel like I was light as a feather!

Sadly for me I'm also a keen viola player, and the stance required coupld with a heavy instrument exacerbates the spasms. And I was diagnosed with cancer three years ago which I've been fighting ever since (it had already metastasised by the time I was diagnosed, which is annoying as heck). Chemo contributes to the overall discomfort.

[flerc]

I cannot see the spine of my daughter when she is lying down over her back (except using a glass), but yes when she is over her left shoulder and hip, and I see all her vertebras aligned and her curve is structural sure. If we could live in the moon or all the day sleeping or in a swimming pool, surely it would not be any problem in having scoliosis, but how to avoid the curve in presence of gravity force, this is the question.
Never say never.. who knows? You cannot prove a priori to be something impossible you could have a warm swimming pool..

Certainly I have not much idea about anatomy. You said that only upper and lower trapezius would be activated and not paraspninal. I asked to a physician some months ago in a scoliosis conference about which are the muscles allowing to holding heavy backpacks and he said me paraspinals. It didn’t convinced me really.
Yes, probably as you said in your case it could be a very bad idea to do it because dystonia. But without it, I believe it could be something useful in order to keep the spine straight. Suppose (of course only to show the idea) that after a hard exercise routine you would be able to walk with 100 kg over your shoulders without collapsing your spine. You do it all the day during months. When you remove the weight, would you not be more straight? I believe at least it would not be so simple for the lateral gravity force to continue pushing your apex toward the convex side.

Certainly I’m not so sure now about what I told to Kevin about the SSS system and the useless of muscles to have a straight spine. Muscles should to be the agents doing a compensatory curve in adulthood, so if they can bend the spine, why they cannot also straighten it?
The daughter of a friend had a bold surgery trying to fix only some thoracic vertebras of her double curve hoping a correction of the lumbar ones. He said me that she walked with all her trunk bended to a side (even the head) and he thought that another surgery would be needed, but then her trunk was straight. How could it be possible without muscles action? Ligaments did it?

[rohrer01]

By your definition, that would be a hysterical scoliosis. Neither curve disappears lying down. Flexible curves reduce on bending.
I only wish I could have a WARM swimming pool in my house! Ha! That will NEVER happen.
About the weights? First of all IF I could hold heavy weights without pain, it would be activating the upper and lower trapezius. This is something I do NOT want to do. I have cervical dystonia and would certainly send me into major spasm.
Second, it would be counterproductive to add more gravity pulling downward on my spine. I don't see at all how this could be beneficial OR activate the paraspinals between the tops of my shoulder blades.

[flerc]

As far as my experience goes, no one ever checked my flexibility, other than to touch my toes so they could look at my back. I never had my flexibility checked until I was an adult with pain. As an adult I was told I was loose jointed. Shouldn't that be something that they check for before labeling someone with IS? Or does it even matter.

For me a flexible curve is one which can disappear by her own in the absence of gravity force. Surely is not a good definition because in order to be really flexible, should to be able to do every movement. I always want to do that proof.. lying in the floor, to move against the curve, that is toward the convex side. Certainly I wish to have a swimming pool in my house. I’m sure it would be great to do every kind of movements in the absence of gravity force, immersed in the water. That’s why I’m sure specific aquatic gym should to be good.

Muscles in and around the shoulder girdle can be exercised, but those around the spine itself can not.

Are you sure? If you hold heavy weights, they would not be active?

[flerc]

Thanks.. sure belongs to the convex side. Anyway it would to be a good information.

[rohrer01]

It seems is used in scoliosis treatments. http://www.piedmontpmr.com/non-surgi...r-scoliosis-3/
‘Platelet Rich Plasma grafting (injecting a persons own growth factors into areas of weak muscle or ligament) are more aggressive but highly effective methods for both pain control and repair of injured structures.’

‘Diagnostic Musculoskeletal Ultrasound can isolate weak, atrophied muscles and strained ligaments.’
It seems to be a non invasive diagnostic, really useful!.. I don’t understand what they are exactly referring with ‘strained’

Sprain - torn
Strain - overstretched

[flerc]

It seems is used in scoliosis treatments. http://www.piedmontpmr.com/non-surgi...r-scoliosis-3/
‘Platelet Rich Plasma grafting (injecting a persons own growth factors into areas of weak muscle or ligament) are more aggressive but highly effective methods for both pain control and repair of injured structures.’

‘Diagnostic Musculoskeletal Ultrasound can isolate weak, atrophied muscles and strained ligaments.’
It seems to be a non invasive diagnostic, really useful!.. I don’t understand what they are exactly referring with ‘strained’

[flerc]

About structural scoliosis, I don’t understand why the assumption they cannot be absolutely flexible. If this would be true, then it would be a fact without any doubt that some tissue different to vertebras (ligament, tendon, muscle, fascia..) is shorten or tighten in the concave side. I think this is under discussion yet. What sure is a fact is the impossibility to remains straight under the effect of gravity. What if ligament, tendon, muscle, fascia.. would be in convex side as in the concave side? I think is what Schroth wants to do.

[flerc]

Certainly it scares me too. I have never heard about this, what Nadal did has nothing to do with this as I know. He used Indiba, the spain invention (very good for pain) and Plasma rich in growth factors http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10453668 I don’t know if exists some limit to all of those advances but certainly if now is possible to get growth in adults in a ‘natural’ way..
Anyway all what is new probably is not too safe. I think that magneto therapy also may get some important improvements in body tissues as ligaments and I don’t know if other tissues as muscles may replace the function developed by them. I wish to know which may be the muscles that Kevin_Mc said could fight against the lateral decomposition of the gravity force. As I said him, is logical to think the body is not prepared to fight against that abnormal force, only to the vertical force. Certainly lumbar vertabras are greater to support more weight, but probably ligaments, muscles.. are not stronger in that zone. Surely the body need help, something as a special education.