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**Pooka1** · 06-26-2010, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by Christian0710 View Post

It is my wish that we can discuss the different back problems in this post, and include knowledge from anatomy books, our own problems, exercises that help etc.

Those are interesting pictures. I hope many people comment. I have a few comments.

Kyphosis: Eradicating neck pain.

Why do you have pain in your neck? Do you have one, two or three curves? Also, it's interesting that you have a lumbar curve and not too much of a thoracic curve (bending test looks to me like your thorax is normal) yet you have an asymmetrical rib hump on standing. I don't understand that.

How big is your lumbar curve and your kyphosis?

I hope PT helps with your neck pain. And your lumbar curve might not progress if isn't too big.

Good luck.

**hdugger** · 06-26-2010, 10:26 AM

Hi Christian,

You have a curve pattern somewhat similar to my son's (although I'd suspect your scoliosis curve is less then his and your kyphotic curve is lower). But he has a scoliosis/kyphosis curve that comes up under his shoulderblade on one side. Do you know the degrees of your curve and whether they're relatively stable?

Is your neck pain at all related to the stretches? Or do the stretches help relieve the pain? My son had a combination of skilled massage and stretches which helped with his neck pain (and also his head-forward posture) but he always has to be really careful of how he positions himself when sitting for awhile or his neck ends up bothering him.

I'm not really qualified to offer specific stretches/exercises. My son got his from a combination of a really good masseuse and a really good physical therapist. Some members of the forum have purchases the book related to the Schroth therapies - you might try that and see if there's anything in there that helps. Also, if you get lucky, we have a resident expert of the board who would know more about the specific muscles involved.

**Christian0710** · 06-26-2010, 11:57 AM

Okay I tried one thing that instantly loosened up all my neck pain for a while. When looking at my back I can see that my ribcage is posterior tilted, which probably contributes to my kyphosis.

I tried lying on my stomach on the floor, with a small rolled up towel placed on the inferior (lower) region of my rib cage right where my abdominal wall begins. This tilted back my rib cage and allowed me to breathe into my sunken chest and my back, feeling big release in my upper back and neck.

Illustration of what a posteriorly tilted rib cage looks like from the book "8 steps to a pain free-back"

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/Billede3.jpg

I need to train some kind of muscle (must be the upper abdominal muscles) that will pull down on my front part of the rib cage. Any ideas???

Originally posted by pooka1

Why do you have pain in your neck? Do you have one, two or three curves? Also, it's interesting that you have a lumbar curve and not too much of a thoracic curve (bending test looks to me like your thorax is normal) yet you have an asymmetrical rib hump on standing. I don't understand that.

How big is your lumbar curve and your kyphosis?

I am still not sure if I have more than 2 curves. I'm on the waiting list for having my x-rays taken, but it's a long list unfortunately. I think I have neck pain mainly due to my overuse of my upper trapezius due to my slumped shoulders and my kyphosis.
Yes I too find my back to be a big puzzle (and scoliosis in general), these problems are quite complex!

**Pooka1** · 06-26-2010, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Christian0710 View Post

I am still not sure if I have more than 2 curves. I'm on the waiting list for having my x-rays taken, but it's a long list unfortunately. I think I have neck pain mainly due to my overuse of my upper trapezius due to my slumped shoulders and my kyphosis.
Yes I too find my back to be a big puzzle (and scoliosis in general), these problems are quite complex!

Your bending test looks almost normal to me. It is incredible to me that you have the amount of asymmetry you have standing when you almost "fail" the forward bending test for scoliosis as far as I can tell. If a person didn't know to look for the minor asymmetry above your left hip, your forward bending picture would appear normal to many folks I think.

Someone on this group will know about this but is seems unusual.

Good luck.

By the way, Denmark produced the best dressage horse of the 20th century against very stiff competition from a few other European countries notably Germany. So I congratulate you and your countrymen on that.

**hdugger** · 06-26-2010, 12:42 PM

Yeah, I noticed that, at least from the camera angle of the forward bend photo you didn't seem to have the traditional hump. However, I don't really know what that test would show if your primary issue was lordosis and the kyphosis was functional (instead of the more familiar structural kyphosis with a functional lordosis)

Xrays would definitely help! If it's *all* functional, you're likely to get a pretty good result from exercise/stretching. If it's structural (which the xrays will show), there's only so much give in your muscles before they run up against the fixed structure of the spine.

**Christian0710** · 06-26-2010, 01:28 PM

Here is a picture of my back standing up like I would normally stand, where the scoliosis might be a bit clearer.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/Backview.jpg

Here is picture of what I would call a bit of TMJ. It's like there is a gap between my teeth to my left side.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/DSC00296.jpg

My asymmetrical head :-)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/DSC00284.jpg

Originally posted by Hdugger

You have a curve pattern somewhat similar to my son's (although I'd suspect your scoliosis curve is less then his and your kyphotic curve is lower). But he has a scoliosis/kyphosis curve that comes up under his shoulderblade on one side. Do you know the degrees of your curve and whether they're relatively stable?

Is your neck pain at all related to the stretches? Or do the stretches help relieve the pain? My son had a combination of skilled massage and stretches which helped with his neck pain (and also his head-forward posture) but he always has to be really careful of how he positions himself when sitting for awhile or his neck ends up bothering him.

I'm not really qualified to offer specific stretches/exercises. My son got his from a combination of a really good masseuse and a really good physical therapist. Some members of the forum have purchases the book related to the Schroth therapies - you might try that and see if there's anything in there that helps. Also, if you get lucky, we have a resident expert of the board who would know more about the specific muscles involved.

hey there,
The stretches relieve my pain but not for long. I am constantly trying different sitting positions and movements to prevent the pain, and it helps, but I still can't sit in a class for long without getting really stiff in my neck sometimes resulting in headaches and poor concentration.
How old is your son if i may ask? And is he able to reduce his curve with exercises?

**hdugger** · 06-26-2010, 02:17 PM

Hi Christian,

My son is 22. He's shown remarkable *cosmetic* improvement with the exercises - it's reduced his head-forward posture and lessened the appearance of kyphosis/scoliosis. It's also reduced his discomfort.

So far, his curves are stable, although there's a good deal of "noise" is the xray measurement. His last measurements showed no change in his kyphosis and "within the range of error" (6 degree) decrease in his scoliosis.

It's interesting that you have facial/jaw asymmetry - he has that as well. And it all started happening during his adolescent growth spurt. He developed a serious open bite (serious enough to require surgery) and his face became noticeably asymmetrical.

Not to suggest scamming the system, but could you fake an acute back injury in order to get an xray? Sudden pain in the lower back, or something that would make them want to speed up the xray process? I'm in the over-treated U.S., but I end up getting offered unwanted xrays all the time with muscle-related back problems.

**jrnyc** · 06-26-2010, 03:49 PM

hi Christian
you and i have waists that look similar..

i have 42 thoracic curve and 61 lumbar...also have thoracic hypokyphosis, rotation, listhesis, spinal stenosis (lower), arthritis of spine, degenerative disc disease..need surgery T11-pelvis...but am "waffling" on whether/when to have it...
i have gotten alot of help from botox shots in thoracic spine...injections i've gotten for lower spine havent helped alot...did get relief from sciatica on left side with epidural..shocked that it helped!

i think i read that you are against surgery for yourself...just wondering what kind of spine doctors are available to you in Denmark..? can you see a pain management doctor?

also...i guess you dont know yet if you have disc degeneration,or other stuff going on beside the scoli til you get the Xrays done... will you be having an MRI also?

i hope you find the answers you are looking for...i know you said you are waiting to have Xrays...does Denmark have national health care...is that why you have to wait...?

best regards
jess

**rohrer01** · 06-26-2010, 07:33 PM

It almost looks to me like you have an upper thoracic curve in the "standing" picture. That would make sense with your shoulder blade that sticks out. I am puzzled why there is no rib hump. I have an upper thoracic, but on bending forward I have very obvious rib humps.

**Christian0710** · 06-27-2010, 12:56 PM

Just to complete my interesting artwork of a crooked body, I thought I might add in my feet :P
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/DSC00303.jpg

Originally posted by hdugger

Hi Christian,

My son is 22. He's shown remarkable *cosmetic* improvement with the exercises - it's reduced his head-forward posture and lessened the appearance of kyphosis/scoliosis. It's also reduced his discomfort.

So far, his curves are stable, although there's a good deal of "noise" is the xray measurement. His last measurements showed no change in his kyphosis and "within the range of error" (6 degree) decrease in his scoliosis.

It's interesting that you have facial/jaw asymmetry - he has that as well. And it all started happening during his adolescent growth spurt. He developed a serious open bite (serious enough to require surgery) and his face became noticeably asymmetrical.

Not to suggest scamming the system, but could you fake an acute back injury in order to get an xray? Sudden pain in the lower back, or something that would make them want to speed up the xray process? I'm in the over-treated U.S., but I end up getting offered unwanted xrays all the time with muscle-related back problems.

It seems as if your son and I have a lot in common. I too am 22 years, working with these problems so I can live a life without pain. The last 2 years my level of pain free time has improved, but there is still a lot to work on. I am quite impressed that he decreased his scoliosis by 6degree. It sounds like he is on the right path. I am quite sure that my scoliosis and jaw asymmetry started taking place in my adolescent growth as well, but it sounds like mine was not as severe as his. It would be interesting to chat whit him and see how he copes with it. Is he on the forum as well?

Yes, I probably could fake my back pain and perhaps get a x-ray taken sooner, but I'm not a very good liar :-)
I called the hospital and told them to send me to a hospital with a shorter waiting list, so I will be getting a letter with the final date soon.

**Christian0710** · 06-27-2010, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by Jrnyc

hi Christian
you and i have waists that look similar..

i have 42 thoracic curve and 61 lumbar...also have thoracic hypokyphosis, rotation, listhesis, spinal stenosis (lower), arthritis of spine, degenerative disc disease..need surgery T11-pelvis...but am "waffling" on whether/when to have it...
i have gotten alot of help from botox shots in thoracic spine...injections i've gotten for lower spine havent helped alot...did get relief from sciatica on left side with epidural..shocked that it helped!

i think i read that you are against surgery for yourself...just wondering what kind of spine doctors are available to you in Denmark..? can you see a pain management doctor?

also...i guess you dont know yet if you have disc degeneration,or other stuff going on beside the scoli til you get the Xrays done... will you be having an MRI also?

i hope you find the answers you are looking for...i know you said you are waiting to have Xrays...does Denmark have national health care...is that why you have to wait...?

best regards
jess

Hey Jess,
The problem is, I can't really find anyone in who knows very much about scoliosis. I have tried different specialists without much avail (except for one who was quite good giving me some good exercises, but now I feel like it's time to move on to someone new.)

It sounds like your scoliosis has become quite severe, are you doing exercises that help you? Yes I have chosen surgery to be my last resort. I really want to find out how I can listen to my body and cope with its pain at first. The reason why I never take pain killers for instance is because I believe that my body is sending me signals and by dulling those pain signals with drugs, I will never learn what my body is telling me. I eradicated a lot of my head aches by changing my diet. If I had not read the book "Heal your headache " and just went for the pills, I would never have discovered the dietary triggers causing my headaches, and then I would not have been able to give my body what it needs. But surely understand that sometimes surgery is the only way, and I totally respect that.

I will only be having an X-ray taken and not an MRI. What would the benefits of having an MRI be?

I wish you the best as well.

**Pooka1** · 06-27-2010, 01:28 PM

Christian0710,

I think your case is extremely interesting. If you were in a school screening program for scoliosis I think you would not be flagged with that forward bending test which appears almost completely normal. I have seen pictures of kyphosis cases bending over and the curve remains. Yours completely disappears.

I think your choice is to walk around the rest of your life bent forward where your back looks normal or try some PT to help the conditions your have.

I am guessing your lumbar scoliosis is mild and like hdugger suggested, you might have some sort of functional thoracic (and possibly cervical) scoliosis that is exacerbating your lordosis/kyphosis which also might be functional (and not structural) if that even exists. It is very curious how asymmetrical it is on standing.

Hopefully the right PT will help you and that you will not need surgery.

Good luck.

**Christian0710** · 06-27-2010, 01:42 PM

Bending test 2

Bending test 2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/DSC00306.jpg

Hey Pooka1: I just found out that I might have been doing the bending test wrong. This time i tried to bend from my back instead of my hips. When bending from my hips my back naturally straightens, but when bending from my back it becomes more deform.

In this photo it looks as if I have thoracolumbar scoliosis, don't you think??

**Pooka1** · 06-27-2010, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Christian0710 View Post

Bending test 2
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/DSC00306.jpg

Hey Pooka1: I just found out that I might have been doing the bending test wrong. This time i tried to bend from my back instead of my hips. When bending from my hips my back naturally straightens, but when bending from my back it becomes more deform.

In this photo it looks as if I have thoracolumbar scoliosis, don't you think??

Thanks for doing that!

Yes I agree with you that you might have a thoracolumbar curve. But notice again that other than that long, apparently mild TL curve, the rest of your back appears completely normal. No rib hump, no kyphosis, nothing. And standing, your shoulders are even.

I think the suregons will have to rule out functional issues before they would ever consider operating. If you curve is mild they would not consider operating anyway.

I am really looking forward to your radiographs. When do you think you will get in to have those done?

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pictures of my back: Scoliosis, lordosis and kyphosis. Discussion

pictures of my back: Scoliosis, lordosis and kyphosis. Discussion

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