Originally posted by hdugger
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How tight should a night time brace be?
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostIt remains rational to not brace given all the caveats.
My specific question to you was why you become emotionally involved in that decision when you are neither the doctor, parent, or patient? Yes, obviously if a kid is struggling, you want to let them know that they might not progress, even without a brace. I totally get that on a support forum. You try to support them wherever you find them. I think Gayle's posts have been completely on target - you don't want the kid to be in pain, you don't want to ignore how they feel. That's all invaluable advice from someone who's been through it from both sides (as a parent as as a patient)
But you're in full engagement in a case where the kid is doing fine, and you're engaging in a way that is far more advocacy then informative. You're calling people "caviler," you're acting as if people who disagree are ill-intentioned, you're repeatedly quoting information that isn't supported by the literature ("bracing only delays surgery") as fact, while treating a randomized study as if it's just some anecdotal report from an unknown source. You're not clarifying the picture - you're creating a picture which, from anything that I've ever read, does not exist. And you're doing it in a very emotionally-charged way.
I am just genuinely puzzled. Is there some reason why you doubt these (now two) doctors of being able to do their job? That is, do you genuinely feel that this specific child ought to be out of a brace right this minute, and that her doctors are putting together a bad treatment plan? Do you suspect that she's somehow suffering greatly, even though all evidence is to the contrary. If not, why are you emotionally involved in the decision?
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Originally posted by hdugger View PostIf not, why are you emotionally involved in the decision?
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Originally posted by flerc View PostHow many parents around the world may be influenced reading her so much confusing claims against every non surgical option, believing she is a scientist as she is saying? MY GOD!!!mariaf305@yahoo.com
Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/
http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/
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Originally posted by hdugger View PostIt's not that it's not rational not to brace -
[...] why you become emotionally involved [...]
You used to contribute A LOT. Then you went around the bend because you are EMOTIONALLY opposed to me personally for personal reasons. None of this has a damn thing to do with medicine.Last edited by Pooka1; 12-11-2013, 07:17 PM.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by flerc View PostIf Pooka1 are really emotionally involved in a brace decision, then she must to see a doctor, but is absolutely unmoral what this Forum is allowing/promoting. It should to be shut down. How many parents around the world may be influenced reading her so much confusing claims against every non surgical option, believing she is a scientist as she is saying? MY GOD!!!
The only way forward is intellectual honesty.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by hdugger View Post"caviler,"
Are you seriously that childish? I think you are around the bend. You never would have done this before you flipped.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View Postthe most cavalier about it as we see in these posts.Last edited by Pooka1; 12-11-2013, 07:16 PM.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post. . .
If you want to ascribe motives to me and call me names, that's certainly your prerogative, but it's nothing I'm interested in engaging in. Believe what you like and feel about me any way you like. If you want to talk about research or facts, I'll engage but for this stuff, you're really on your own.
I will make one small suggestion - isn't it possible that my spelling isn't all that good? I mean, again, think what you like, but I believe you've over-estimated my spelling skills as well as my plotting skills.
Maria, I quoted a study awhile ago where, if people read a scientific article and then read a comment with a personal invective, it colored what they thought the article said. That's why one of the science magazines closed their comments section - because emotional heat was actually changing the way that facts were perceived. Hence my sense that it makes it more difficult for people to consider information clearly.
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Originally posted by hdugger View PostMaria, I quoted a study awhile ago where, if people read a scientific article and then read a comment with a personal invective, it colored what they thought the article said. That's why one of the science magazines closed their comments section - because emotional heat was actually changing the way that facts were perceived. Hence my sense that it makes it more difficult for people to consider information clearly.
We all have identified our "dangers to society." You think it is me. I think it is folk science. Again not directed at you; I think you know folk science when you see it but fail 99% of the time to point it out because you don't perceive it as a problem. <shrug>Last edited by Pooka1; 12-11-2013, 09:35 PM.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostWe all have identified our "dangers to society." You think it is me. I think it is folk science.
I have repeatedly asked our friend flerc if he thinks BrAIST is a landmark study. By any estimate BrAIST is *IS* a landmark study. The reason he demurs is because I previously posted a link showing that only a small percentage of results from "landmark" studies are successfully reproduced. The same can be assumed for BrAIST though the other issues are probably enough at this point to remain skeptical.
If the results can't be reproduced, does it mean BrAIST is wrong or the second study is wrong? Who knows. They could both be wrong for different reasons. Or BrAIST could be correct (after addressing the caveats most especially the long term picture). This is a hard game. Half the battle is appreciating that fact.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View Postemotional heat (which I deny on my part, by the way).
Again, it makes it extremely distracting to just focus on the facts at hand. Can we just assume that no one is trying to harm, and that no one has an infallible grasp on the research?
BTW, maybe you've guessed or maybe you haven't, but I've no idea how to spell cavalier. I always start out spelling it cavilier and then the spell check calls that out, so I click on it and pick the first suggested spelling. Which, it turns out, is also wrong. I'm just a really lousy speller, much to the chagrin of my mom, the English teacher.
If I want to insult you, trust me, I'll just insult you.
Anyway, before I got distracted, this is what I was thinking about what your fear might be, in this case. And you're perfectly welcome to correct me - it just sort of jibed with the what I saw going on. So, is the issue that you think this particular kid has a false double major which will become a real double major over time if she braces? That is, that she'll make it to adulthood with a slightly sub-surgical curve, but then the lower curve will become structural as she ages and she'll eventually need a full fusion?
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View Postfolk science
But, seriously, really, let it go. If you want to just blurt out every once in awhile that you think Dingo is a poo poo head, be my guest. But this sort of "people who post folk science (nod nod wink wink)" stuff is way too high school for my taste, and I didn't even *go* to high school.
I like Dingo and I find the stuff he posts interesting. If that strips me of my MPH (capitalization? Don't know, and I got the darn degree) in your eyes, so be it. I'm happy to be just folk.
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I am trying to get people to think critically. I am trying to get them to think like scientists. In normal life this is not so critical. In a serious medical situation, it matters more. I am scared for people with little science background when faced with this.
Surgeons have a range of opinions on many things. That fact needs to be brought on board and fully embraced.
People want answers. The research literature is the best bet but it isn't so good, especially in this field where the research is hard to conduct.
But we have to avoid people going the other way to pseudoscience and google science.
It's a very dicey situation on this forum in my opinion.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by hdugger View PostMaria, I quoted a study awhile ago where, if people read a scientific article and then read a comment with a personal invective, it colored what they thought the article said. That's why one of the science magazines closed their comments section - because emotional heat was actually changing the way that facts were perceived. Hence my sense that it makes it more difficult for people to consider information clearly.
I was just trying to calm flerc's fear about parents using what we say on this forum to make decisions. Of course, we all read all sorts of things every day (articles, forums, etc.), but I give most people credit for being able to sort fact from opinion. And ironically, Pooka sticks to facts and science as much, if not more, than most.mariaf305@yahoo.com
Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/
http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/
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