Treatment: PT using MedX per Mooney & later, McIntire research

[TAMZTOM]

Tamztom is doing it freestanding, but this means he is unable to focus on the paraspinal muscles. I am not saying the workout won't build other muscle groups, but I do not believe that CTR will have an effect on curve progression if all muscle groups are able to engage. (Dr. McIntire can correct me here, but it is my opinion the larger muscles will take over the task if they aren't eliminated from the workout.

I too would benefit from any additional input from Kevin on doing CTR WITHOUT a MedX or Cybex machine, i.e., doing it with bands attached to a wall-bar. His home-based protocol describes how to do CTR with bands. I'm unsure if much data has been collected on this home protocol (HB CTR).
After observing Tamzin perform the HB CTR and doing it myself, I know that one can stop the pelvis and hips moving AND dominating during the exercise. In fact, there's a theoretical possibility that being able to restrain oneself initiates even more intense work by the deep, inner core muscles, including the lumbar paraspinals, than is achieved when restrained by, for example, a MedX hip restraint. Furthermore, after 'locking' oneself into a MedX, those hip and gluteus muscles can still work to push against the restraint, not unlike the current research focusing on developing exercises for kids to use the rigidity of hard braces to work 'within' the brace.
The effectiveness of HB CTR would clearly depend on the individual's ability to minimise hip and pelvic movement, and to not use arm or shoulder strength. (AMom, you've seen Tamzin performing this exercise; did you notice any undue hip movement or shoulder and arm contribution? 3sisters has also tried this HB CTR. Kevin, I can give you a link to Tamzin doing the HB CTR.)
Kevin has also discussed the difficulty of ascertaining what contribution each muscle group makes to CTR. Muscle groups other than the paraspinals contribute; doing the exercise while minimising other muscle group contribution is clearly important to achieving maximum work by the paraspinals. Whether a Medx/Cybex session more effectively isolates and works the paraspinals than a focused HB CTR session is, for me, an undecided. E.g., given the difficulties, perhaps impossibility and definitely the lack of a complete EMG test on all the muscle groups used during MedX CTR, I do not know enough to favour one protocol over the other.
(To coin an oft quoted McI-ism, "Just thinking aloud" for all us impoverished masses who don't have machines in the house!) I would imagine that if HB CTR could work the paraspinals as well as doing CTR on a MedX, there would many more of the 100s or 1000s of readers of this thread eager to participate in the discussion.

[AMom]

MedX 2x per wk & Cybex 2x per wk

Hi Amom,

I am here. We've used Cybex for several weeks. Then found the MedX torso rotation machine in a small fitness center. But only have been there for two weeks.

We are using the 24 lb settings right now. Also using the MedX back extension machine there. We go there twice a week. Then we go to our regular gym using Cybex for CTR twice a week.

Thanks.

Hello djjane,

Wow, you are working out 4x per week! Cybex has two versions of a core torso rotation machine; may I ask which one you are using? Does your son rotate his upper or lower body during the Cybex workout? We were warned that working out this group of muscles 3x per week would/ could cause inflammation and then pain, so we should be ready to reduce the number of workouts. She has not shown any signs of pain or discomfort over the last 13 months--yet (we have begun modifying workouts). How is your son doing, any discomfort on the days between workouts?

Keep us in the loop; let us know how things are going.

A Mom

[AMom]

Freestanding CTR & CTR Equipment

I too would benefit from any additional input from Kevin on doing CTR WITHOUT a MedX or Cybex machine, i.e., doing it with bands attached to a wall-bar. His home-based protocol describes how to do CTR with bands. I'm unsure if much data has been collected on this home protocol (HB CTR).
After observing Tamzin perform the HB CTR and doing it myself, I know that one can stop the pelvis and hips moving AND dominating during the exercise. In fact, there's a theoretical possibility that being able to restrain oneself initiates even more intense work by the deep, inner core muscles, including the lumbar paraspinals, than is achieved when restrained by, for example, a MedX hip restraint. Furthermore, after 'locking' oneself into a MedX, those hip and gluteus muscles can still work to push against the restraint, not unlike the current research focusing on developing exercises for kids to use the rigidity of hard braces to work 'within' the brace.
The effectiveness of HB CTR would clearly depend on the individual's ability to minimise hip and pelvic movement, and to not use arm or shoulder strength. (AMom, you've seen Tamzin performing this exercise; did you notice any undue hip movement or shoulder and arm contribution? 3sisters has also tried this HB CTR. Kevin, I can give you a link to Tamzin doing the HB CTR.)
Kevin has also discussed the difficulty of ascertaining what contribution each muscle group makes to CTR. Muscle groups other than the paraspinals contribute; doing the exercise while minimising other muscle group contribution is clearly important to achieving maximum work by the paraspinals. Whether a Medx/Cybex session more effectively isolates and works the paraspinals than a focused HB CTR session is, for me, an undecided. E.g., given the difficulties, perhaps impossibility and definitely the lack of a complete EMG test on all the muscle groups used during MedX CTR, I do not know enough to favour one protocol over the other.
(To coin an oft quoted McI-ism, "Just thinking aloud" for all us impoverished masses who don't have machines in the house!) I would imagine that if HB CTR could work the paraspinals as well as doing CTR on a MedX, there would many more of the 100s or 1000s of readers of this thread eager to participate in the discussion.

I have watched Tamzin completing this workout; she performs it with a high degree of control and is able to make minor corrections almost instantly. I have said it before, but it is worth repeating, she has a strong awareness of her body and its place in space. I doubt many could achieve her control.

Acknowledging her skills, and that my daughter does not possess them, I do not think it is possible for a child or the average person to "turn off" isolated muscles at will. (Tom, this is only my opinion. I certainly do not question the wonderful job your family is doing or that you likely have a better understanding of human anatomy and how it works than me.) The workout she is doing will strengthen related muscles and that is important. --People sometimes forget a building is only as strong as its foundation. (I know you are not one of those people!)

BACKGROUND: My child carefully completed several hours of PT twice a day that included *CTR standing, seated, & lying down 5-7x per week (usually 6x per week) for several years. Her curve continued to progress until we stopped the freestanding CTR and begin the workouts with equipment last year. At that point, there was an abrupt halt in curve progression that lasted for 8 months. As a side note, after years of CTR, she had to start at a very low weight on the MedX and struggled to lift it.

We'll see what has happened over the last 6 months at her next x-ray on April 16. There have been visual changes to the topography of her lower back that make me question what is occurring, but I won't know what it means until we see her ortho.

*Anticipating someone will ask, she used a Swiss ball, a weighted ball, bands, theracords and coincidentally was also using different types of balance boards as well as various other equipment. She stood, stood and stepped, sat on a chair, sat on the floor, sat on the ball, lay on the ball, and would lie on the floor during her routine. Her workouts were supervised by an OT on Tuesdays and a PT on Fridays with the remaining workouts supervised by myself or a TA. I observed the OT & PT working out with her weekly, so I was able to ask questions and have them check MY supervisorial skills. I also observed the TA’s for months before I left them on their own and then scheduled regular observation days to answer questions.

A Mom

[djjane]

We are using the Cybex which rotates upper body. (We first was using the one rotates lower body, then find out it is too different from MedX.)

Since we just started MedX, can only do 24 lb and total 12 on left side and 12 on right side. And we can only be there 2 days a week. So we have not discontinued the Cybex.

As you can see, our workload starts very low. So there's not much discomfort between the days.

[TAMZTOM]

AMom

I wonder how many people I've put off posting on NSF because I'm so blunt, lacking in clarity, or just dense. Apologies AMom, I didn't intend to be argumentative, only to air my observations and constant, constant, incessant questions! I would have paid for your input on TR...it is that good (and I'm Scottish, remember).

Regards
Tom

I have watched Tamzin completing this workout

[AMom]

Low weight, but regular workouts worked for us

We are using the Cybex which rotates upper body. (We first was using the one rotates lower body, then find out it is too different from MedX.)

Since we just started MedX, can only do 24 lb and total 12 on left side and 12 on right side. And we can only be there 2 days a week. So we have not discontinued the Cybex.

As you can see, our workload starts very low. So there's not much discomfort between the days.

djjane,

Again, you are doing more than us at the beginning! When she started a year ago, she was at 10lbs, (ROM) peg 1, 13 reps. We tested her ability and she could do more on one side than the other, but we kept the weight symmetrical. It took two full months of increasing the reps to 20-25, before we got the weight to 18lbs, peg 1, 20 reps. In the middle of the third month, she took a big jump in weight (mentally ready for it) to 30lbs. I could have forced the issue, but we are in this for the long haul so I waited for HER to be ready and want to start pushing harder.

FYI: The way we went about this is NOT the way recommended. Everyone recommends increasing the weight as much and as quickly as the client can tolerate…I was worried about our low weight and slow progression, but by the fourth month she was still only at 30lbs and her curve had stopped progressing (per x-ray). It is possible that was the natural progression for her curve or maybe the workout doesn’t have to be as intense as anticipated. I do not know because I have no data with which to make comparisons.

She had a difficult time with the roman chair so I was glad to be able to start her at 75° instead of the standard 45°. She has been at 45° for MONTHS now and can’t seem to transition from Arms-Across-Sternum to Genie Arms. It will come eventually, but now I know not to worry about these little “slow-downs” in progress.

I am interested in your son’s opinion of the Cybex that rotates the lower body. I’ve wanted to try it and see if it might compliment the MedX. Does the workout feel different? Does the arrangement work the middle & upper thoracic? The best CTR seems to have done for thoracolumbar curves is to hold them, whereas it temporarily decreased other types of curves. I’ve wondered if I could find a way to work the upper middle portion of the spine if we could obtain a slight reduction in the thoracic. (lol I am being foolish about a treatment that has no track record!)

Really, I am pleased with her current results, but I can’t leave well enough alone--I am pushing the envelope. The flip side of not having a prescribed protocol is there is no one to tell me, “You’re doing it wrong!

Good luck,

A Mom

[djjane]

Well, I guess we should stay at the weight and not increase it for a while. Today he did mention the muscle in front is kind of sore.

I did PM you the Cybex machine picture. He does it in a very different way than the MedX. With MedX, there's trainer by his side to ask him to do it slowly. With Cybex, he's on his own and doing it fast -- in my opinion, that's probably one of the reasons it did not exercise the muscles that much.

[AMom]

Good form is important

Well, I guess we should stay at the weight and not increase it for a while. Today he did mention the muscle in front is kind of sore.

I did PM you the Cybex machine picture. He does it in a very different way than the MedX. With MedX, there's trainer by his side to ask him to do it slowly. With Cybex, he's on his own and doing it fast -- in my opinion, that's probably one of the reasons it did not exercise the muscles that much.

FYI: My daughter said she has never felt any soreness in the front. I've used her MedX and I can't figure out how it could cause discomfort there either. After looking at the Cybex link you sent, I am guessing it must be from that equipment if the discomfort is high in the chest. If the MedX has two days between its workouts (i.e. Monday and Thursday) and the Cybex has two days between its workouts (i.e. Wednesday and Saturday) then the soreness in his chest should disappear fairly quickly. Working out 4x per week, I would have expected his back to become sore before his chest. Hmmm, maybe it is from another part of his personal workout?

In the beginning, we had to really work at it to get the timing right. We would count to 5 turning one direction and then to 5 again returning to the starting position. If she was still rushing it, I would have her hold for the count of 1 at the fully open position and then start the return.

Since she is lifting close to half her weight, and seems ready for a bit of change, we are altering her routine as suggested by several professionals. Some days she asks to reduce the weight and increase the reps or to change the ROM or to do both. (So far, she hasn't asked to increase the weight and reduce the reps, but I will suggest it sometime soon to increase her options.) At this point, giving her choices increases her "buy-in." I am watching carefully to make sure the alterations to her routine rotate through the three seat heights so the workouts remain balanced.

When she is doing the eccentric workout, she holds the weight for 1-2 seconds before returning to the starting position, she usually take about 7-8 seconds to complete the motion.

We add weight as she is able--I try to keep the intensity of the workout consistent rather than the time between weight increases.

Write, write, write, now it is time to spend time with my girls.

A Mom

[Kevin_Mc]

Tamztom is doing it freestanding, but this means he is unable to focus on the paraspinal muscles. I am not saying the workout won't build other muscle groups, but I do not believe that CTR will have an effect on curve progression if all muscle groups are able to engage. (Dr. McIntire can correct me here, but it is my opinion the larger muscles will take over the task if they aren't eliminated from the workout.)

A Mom

I'd need to re-read/skim an article that looks at paraspinal muscle activation during seated and standing trunk rotations, both weighted and unweighted. I believe that paraspinals are active in most, if not all, trunk motions. It's sort of correct to say that the larger muscles can 'take over' the movement. However, I still believe that the smaller stabilizing muscles are active (I could be wrong about this though. This was one area of research I really tried to study when finishing up grad school. That is, the idea that exercising larger muscle groups will still activate/exercise the smaller stabilizers. OR if the larger muscles 'dis-activate' the stabilizers. I couldn't find anything directly reporting this measurement.) At any rate, if my hypothesis is true, then as long as the primary trunk movers are being activated, the stabilizers should also be activated. What could complicate this is if the movement that is supposed to be trunk rotation is actually some other 'cheating' movement, e.g. hip/pelvis rotation.

I also feel that the specific role the muscle plays is important to consider as well. (As with the above information, most of this is hypothetical). Assuming the paraspinals are active during larger/heavier trunk rotational movements AND assuming that vertebral rotation is a primary driving feature of curve progression, having the paraspinals work to stabilize during rotation would be task specific for potentially controlling the curve. That is, the paraspinals get lots of training and practice at stabilizing the spine during a rotational force or twist. This would suggest to me that sitting will minimize the other tasks the paraspinals have to do in order to assist in rotation, i.e. the muscles won't have to put as much effort into maintaining an upright posture.

On the other hand, having the paraspinals work while standing might be good multi-tasking training, i.e. resist rotary forces in a standing position.

"Just thinking out loud" :>

I too would benefit from any additional input from Kevin on doing CTR WITHOUT a MedX or Cybex machine, i.e., doing it with bands attached to a wall-bar. His home-based protocol describes how to do CTR with bands. I'm unsure if much data has been collected on this home protocol (HB CTR).
After observing Tamzin perform the HB CTR and doing it myself, I know that one can stop the pelvis and hips moving AND dominating during the exercise. In fact, there's a theoretical possibility that being able to restrain oneself initiates even more intense work by the deep, inner core muscles, including the lumbar paraspinals, than is achieved when restrained by, for example, a MedX hip restraint. Furthermore, after 'locking' oneself into a MedX, those hip and gluteus muscles can still work to push against the restraint, not unlike the current research focusing on developing exercises for kids to use the rigidity of hard braces to work 'within' the brace.
The effectiveness of HB CTR would clearly depend on the individual's ability to minimise hip and pelvic movement, and to not use arm or shoulder strength. (AMom, you've seen Tamzin performing this exercise; did you notice any undue hip movement or shoulder and arm contribution? 3sisters has also tried this HB CTR.

Stabilizing the hips and pelvis are extremely important in either MedX or thera-band based exercise. I think you make an interesting point about the effects of relying so much on the machine to stabilize versus the individual person stabilizing. You can see again, how quickly this becomes unbelievably complicated. It gets dizzying to me sometimes.

Kevin, I can give you a link to Tamzin doing the HB CTR.)

Yeah. That'd be great.

I would imagine that if HB CTR could work the paraspinals as well as doing CTR on a MedX, there would many more of the 100s or 1000s of readers of this thread eager to participate in the discussion.

The basic idea behind our original study (and the initial attraction to Mooney's work) was that this movement/exercise would be easy to perform and teach and would be well suited for home use. Given what we seemed to learn from the work, at the very least, I'd say giving some instruction and theraband to some watch and wait kids would be an ideal use for this. However, having trained a dozen or so kids on trunk rotations and home program, it's not the easiest thing to do correctly right away. Especially for those who are generally already clumsy, i.e. most kids between the ages of 10 and 16.

[AMom]

Paraspinal muscle activation

I'd need to re-read/skim an article that looks at paraspinal muscle activation during seated and standing trunk rotations, both weighted and unweighted. I believe that paraspinals are active in most, if not all, trunk motions. It's sort of correct to say that the larger muscles can 'take over' the movement. However, I still believe that the smaller stabilizing muscles are active (I could be wrong about this though. This was one area of research I really tried to study when finishing up grad school. That is, the idea that exercising larger muscle groups will still activate/exercise the smaller stabilizers. OR if the larger muscles 'dis-activate' the stabilizers. I couldn't find anything directly reporting this measurement.) At any rate, if my hypothesis is true, then as long as the primary trunk movers are being activated, the stabilizers should also be activated. What could complicate this is if the movement that is supposed to be trunk rotation is actually some other 'cheating' movement, e.g. hip/pelvis rotation.

I also feel that the specific role the muscle plays is important to consider as well. (As with the above information, most of this is hypothetical). Assuming the paraspinals are active during larger/heavier trunk rotational movements AND assuming that vertebral rotation is a primary driving feature of curve progression, having the paraspinals work to stabilize during rotation would be task specific for potentially controlling the curve. That is, the paraspinals get lots of training and practice at stabilizing the spine during a rotational force or twist. This would suggest to me that sitting will minimize the other tasks the paraspinals have to do in order to assist in rotation, i.e. the muscles won't have to put as much effort into maintaining an upright posture.

On the other hand, having the paraspinals work while standing might be good multi-tasking training, i.e. resist rotary forces in a standing position.

"Just thinking out loud" :> ....

1. I realize what I wrote and what I meant were two different things. I implied and then said the paraspinals would not be working, when I should have said they would not be doing nearly as much work or even the same work they do when the other muscles are fully engaged; (exercising the larger muscles does not stop smaller muscles from working, but it does stop the need for them to become stronger so they can compensate when all of the larger muscles are not available for a task)
2. I agree it is important to consider the intended role of the muscles (and to consider how far outside that role we can expect them to act);
3. I agree that it can take a long time for many children to learn how to complete specific movements as directed;
4. I also agree that sitting will minimize the tasks necessary to stabilize the body; and
5. I am adding that in a seated position it is easier to maintain good form and control the muscle groups recruited.

• However, here is where we differ in opinion. After years of work with my daughter, I don’t believe A) freestanding rotation will have the same results because even with B) consistent, careful, hours of daily work, it did not have the same impact on curve progression as a similar action did in the MedX; and C) when she begin working on the MedX she struggled to lift a weight similar to that she had been working with in the freestanding rotations. (Shouldn’t she have been stronger by then?)
• The change in progression could not have been more abrupt.
• FYI: In the prior workouts, she spent hours in her daily workout (6 days per week), now she spends less than 20 minutes on the VARC & MedX three times per week.
• FYI: During the free standing workout, she had 3 OT’s and 2 PT’s checking her work and my directions. (I had multiple professionals check to make sure we were doing it correctly, but for the sake of consistency, she had two professionals working with her.) All of them worked with children with scoliosis. Admittedly, none of them had any success in holding a curve. (Neither did I!)

It could be argued that:
► She did not complete the action correctly, do the workouts daily, or I did not provide adequate supervision (myself or my choice of professionals);
► The curve would have stopped progressing whether she started using the machines or not; and
► She is only one child and the results of a single child do not prove free standing rotations don’t work (though I do know other parents were doing them 1x at therapy and occasionally at home w/out positive results.)

 I can state I have learned a little bit about the body, read a few articles, spoken with some parents, and a lot of professionals. By now I’m reasonably sure of the following: I am overly detail oriented, highly focused, & follow through, and I think it is more likely the change in my daughter's curve progression is due to the change in the method of delivery of the torso rotation exercises. However, I can’t state that unequivocally because the x-rays only represent 8 months. --Soon, I’ll either be very disappointed or relieved.

Your turn!

A Mom

[TAMZTOM]

Kevin
I've just PM'd you.
Tom

However, I still believe that the smaller stabilizing muscles are active...

I agree. If they weren't active, larger muscle group activity could greatly distort the spine during normal activity.

...as long as the primary trunk movers are being activated, the stabilizers should also be activated. What could complicate this is if the movement that is supposed to be trunk rotation is actually some other 'cheating' movement, e.g. hip/pelvis rotation.

Isometric tension and/or direct force on the restraining pads allow "cheating" even in the machines. I suspect that for many users, the machine restraints stop a lot of pelvic and shoulder/arm contribution and that therefore using the machine better isolates the paraspinals than without. But there's even a likelihood that 'perfect form' doing the unrestrained version of TR actually works the paraspinals better than in the machine.

On the other hand, having the paraspinals work while standing might be good multi-tasking training, i.e. resist rotary forces in a standing position.

Agree again. We walk. Often.

Stabilizing the hips and pelvis are extremely important in either MedX or thera-band based exercise. I think you make an interesting point about the effects of relying so much on the machine to stabilize versus the individual person stabilizing. You can see again, how quickly this becomes unbelievably complicated. It gets dizzying to me sometimes.

It may reduce to this: one can cheat doing home-based, unrestrained TR and also cheat using a machine; I think that both can work very effectively if technique is optimised. Analogy that you'll identify with Kevin; elite kid athletes can achieve "relaxed speed", most kid and adults cannot (e.g., Scarlett at 13 yrs did 2 x 400 m at sub-60 seconds by relaxing, letting it flow, using the correct technique and muscles....this was during a short sharpening session for 1500 m preparation, not a sprint session).

[Video of Tamzin doing home-based TR.]Yeah. That'd be great.

I'll video the next session, Sunday I think. On a tangent Kevin, Tamzin's ROM was awful...until last night! Don't know exactly how, but last night her asymm. counter-clockwise rotation was hugely increased (we've been doing HB CTR regularly every 3rd day). I'll also include a video clip of Tamzin doing Roman Chair; staggering strength and we're about to use Schroth type arm position to stretch the concavities and work the weaker lumbar and low thoracic muscle groups more.

However, having trained a dozen or so kids on trunk rotations and home program, it's not the easiest thing to do correctly right away. Especially for those who are generally already clumsy, i.e. most kids between the ages of 10 and 16.

Exactly.

[TAMZTOM]

...exercising the larger muscles does not stop smaller muscles from working, but it does stop the need for them to become stronger so they can compensate when all of the larger muscles are not available for a task)

Basic principle of isolating muscles, agree.

5. I am adding that in a seated position it is easier to maintain good form and control the muscle groups recruited.

Kevin's point about ALSO doing TR standing is well taken.

I am overly detail oriented, highly focused, & follow through, and I think it is more likely the change in my daughter's curve progression is due to the change in the method of delivery of the torso rotation exercises.

I'd say you're precise and that I need a lot more of what you've got!

[Kevin_Mc]

1. I realize what I wrote and what I meant were two different things. I implied and then said the paraspinals would not be working, when I should have said they would not be doing nearly as much work or even the same work they do when the other muscles are fully engaged; (exercising the larger muscles does not stop smaller muscles from working, but it does stop the need for them to become stronger so they can compensate when all of the larger muscles are not available for a task)

From a purely scientific point of view, this is still hypothetical. To my knowledge, there haven't been any studies looking at this specific concept, although somewhere there might be a study that indirectly measured it. Undoubtedly, the stabilizing muscles would seem to operate differently when the larger muscles are active. But to what extent is the question. I know I learned this at some point in school. I just can't find the original articles that would have measured it OR if the concept is just theoretical.

• However, here is where we differ in opinion. After years of work with my daughter, I don’t believe A) freestanding rotation will have the same results because even with B) consistent, careful, hours of daily work, it did not have the same impact on curve progression as a similar action did in the MedX; and C) when she begin working on the MedX she struggled to lift a weight similar to that she had been working with in the freestanding rotations. (Shouldn’t she have been stronger by then?)
• The change in progression could not have been more abrupt.
• FYI: In the prior workouts, she spent hours in her daily workout (6 days per week), now she spends less than 20 minutes on the VARC & MedX three times per week.
• FYI: During the free standing workout, she had 3 OT’s and 2 PT’s checking her work and my directions. (I had multiple professionals check to make sure we were doing it correctly, but for the sake of consistency, she had two professionals working with her.) All of them worked with children with scoliosis. Admittedly, none of them had any success in holding a curve. (Neither did I!)

I'm not sure we differ in opinion only because I don't think I really have an opinion on this. Mostly just figuring out what makes the most physiologic sense. You may be completely correct. If that were the case, my job, if I were doing a study, would be to figure out why that just happened, i.e. many times, real-life doesn't fit in with what makes physiologic sense.

It could be argued that:
► She did not complete the action correctly, do the workouts daily, or I did not provide adequate supervision (myself or my choice of professionals);
► The curve would have stopped progressing whether she started using the machines or not; and
► She is only one child and the results of a single child do not prove free standing rotations don’t work (though I do know other parents were doing them 1x at therapy and occasionally at home w/out positive results.)

Yep, to all of the above.

By now I’m reasonably sure of the following: I am overly detail oriented, highly focused

I knew it was pathologic. :>

--Soon, I’ll either be very disappointed or relieved.

Well, regardless, no one can accuse you of not trying your absolute hardest. Nonetheless, let's hope for the 'relieved' part.

It may reduce to this: one can cheat doing home-based, unrestrained TR and also cheat using a machine; I think that both can work very effectively if technique is optimised. Analogy that you'll identify with Kevin; elite kid athletes can achieve "relaxed speed", most kid and adults cannot (e.g., Scarlett at 13 yrs did 2 x 400 m at sub-60 seconds by relaxing, letting it flow, using the correct technique and muscles....this was during a short sharpening session for 1500 m preparation, not a sprint session).

She can run a sub-60 400? That's just not fair.

[TAMZTOM]

She can run a sub-60 400? That's just not fair.

I just beat her. :-)

[AMom]

Structural Curve Question

I knew it was pathologic. :>

Shhhhh, if we don't tell anyone I'm different, no one will notice.

We tried Tom's "Shroth version" of the roman chair/ Shroth positioning instead of symmetrical positioning. (fingers lightly touching ear while the other hand rested on her opposing hip.) I was shocked. I can't remember the last time I saw my daughter bend over (think Adam's bend) and not see a bump immediately appear. Using the Shroth position on the equipment, she had a perfectly smooth back. I never really asked questions about it, but I had a vague idea that the STRUCTURAL portion of the curve could not straighten out, flex, or de-rotate without surgery, so I thought I would never see a "flat" back in a bending position. Am I confusing two separate ideas here?

She said it felt easier. It was my impression she could do another 7-10 reps, but I didn't want to push it the first time, just in case there was residual discomfort. I'll try it again tomorrow (second time for us) and let her do the extra set of 10 if she is up to it.