So glad I found you guys!

[Pooka1]

Try copy/paste to a word document and then save that.

[Elisa]

I managed to save them in Word. Here they are.

I did save them in Word but I don't see an attachment. This has been a tad frustrating but I'll get it eventually. I would have deleted the post but I can't.

[Elisa]

delete delete

[Elisa]

One more try. If it doesn't work then no big deal. The images are pretty much what I already posted earlier only clearer. The best I could do was save them in Paint as a jpg.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/f...liasx-rays.jpg

[Elisa]

Finally getting all those loose ends tied up and am planning on heading to Comox (next town over) on Friday to get those passports ready. I know it's not a big deal for a lot of you who travel on a regular basis but for us who live on 'the rock' here on Vancouver Island and who rarely travel it IS a lot of paperwork to fill out and get authorized. Used to be that we could pop over the border no problem with just some photo ID but not now.

Showed my co-worker today my son's images and her jaw dropped. Yes, his spine is extremely twisted and I bet it's one of the worst you've seen here and it still shocks me to know that he 'seemed' pretty much normal about a year ago. He's got scoliosis bad, real bad but he's walking around like nothing much has happened other than a bit of backache at the end of his school day.

I know you guys aren't surgeons, but taking a look at his twisted spine, what do you think the surgeon will recommend as to his fusion? It looks like a big one to me. :/

[JenniferG]

I can't help Elisa but I agree, it looks like a big curve. But your son is young and you will be amazed at what surgery can offer. He will have before and after x-rays that will amaze everyone who sees them. I'm glad he's not suffering too much at this stage.

[Pooka1]

It is truly, truly impossible for any of us to guess at what the fusion will be. A surgeon can't even do it without bending films which you don't have.

That said, I don't think you need assume it will be a particularly long fusion just because it is large. It seems well confined to the thorax and so hopefully the fusion won't go into the lumbar much if at all.

The decision about surgery might possibly hinge on if there has been progression in the last few months. If no progression, I think they will delay to allow for more growth. If the progression between the first and second set has continued between the second and third set they will take at Shriners then that might matter to when to schedule.

You need to bring both sets of radiographs to Shriners. It looks like you just posted the ones from 2 months ago and none when he was at 37* or 47* several months ago. Bring ALL of them to Shriners.

[Elisa]

Hmmm, you're right Pooka, the x-rays that I got yesterday ARE the more recent ones. I wonder why they didn't include the first set which were taken about five months before that. I wonder if they're on the disc but I just overlooked it? I'll play around with the CD some more.

I honestly feel as though his progression is BAD. I can tell you for sure that by looking at him about a year ago his back looks nothing like it does today. It's like some sort of alien Sci-Fi warp-speed deformity has happened. Shocking. And he continues on almost normally. Weird.

[Pooka1]

Call the hospital and ask if they put the earlier series on there.

You can probably call now... the imaging office at the hospital where my kids went is open 24/7.

[Elisa]

I had a good look through the CD and I found no other images. Not sure why they call them a "series" when there's only ONE set. They've been very helpful so far so tomorrow I will go and ask for the first ones. It's nice that everything is so close in this town and most people are oh so helpful.

I do believe now that the first set taken about nine months or so or maybe a bit more was showing 47*. I say that b/c our GP read out the results, lowered and shook his head and gave us the options of: 23/hr bracing, possible surgery, go see Rielly at BC Children's OR he said something about Shriners' in Oregon. I was unhappy that there was no one on this whole Island that could 'see' my son but as time went on, Vancouver sounded good but they're maxed out so then I tried Shriners and now I get what my doc was talking about. His is a bad case and it was obvious nine or more months ago. I just didn't know it.

[Elisa]

Off to get passports this morning and visit with the MIL and shop a bit as well in the next town over.

I was thinking of getting something healthy to help my son bulk up a bit just in case he ends up having surgery in the next while. His appetite is great but he is naturally slim so he doesn't seem to putting on any extra pounds at all. We rarely (husband never) eats junk food or fast food etc. so I'm looking for a nutritious supplement to give my son so he can have a few pounds to spare b/c I've been reading about how people lose a lot of weight after surgery and I can't really picture him being any thinner than he already is.

Any suggestions?

[Elisa]

Such a busy day but I feel as though a HUGE weight has been lifted off my shoulders by getting all this passport stuff finally done. Paperwork is definitely not my forte and am really glad I decided to drive the 45 minutes to Service Canada where a wonderful woman fixed the few mistakes that I made on both applications. She even suggested getting a social insurance number for my son while we were there. I never ever got such great service when I lived in Victoria which is a much larger city and everyone seemed so cranky, rude and unhelpful which of course brought out the worst in me.

Got the boy the vaccination that he missed somewhere along the way as well so I have to send the completed health record to Shriners. All I need now is that first set of x-rays put on the CD and we are done.

I wonder when Shriners will call me. I hope it is soon.

Oh, when I went to pay for the passports by Visa, my card was declined which really ticks me off b/c this is a brand new card (replacing my old one) and I just activated it the other day but it didn't work. Good thing I didn't throw out the old one b/c it still worked. It's annoying b/c the woman on the phone who activated it spent more time trying to sell me 'balance insurance' and I listened to her whole spiel and just wanted my card activated. Obviously she screwed that part up, grrrrrr.

[Pooka1]

With all due respect to those and their opinions of chiropractors and I mean this sincerely, so please don't attack me . I have noticed quite a bit of chiropractic bashing on this forum. Now, I do agree that there are many chiropractors out there that have given the profession a bad name. More than I care to admit but just like in all professions there are good apples and bad apples.

No actually it's not like other professions because the basis of chiro (subluxations) has been shown to be nonsense. Unless the evidence-based chiros come up with something, it is not obvious that there is a "there" there with chiro. So far it is as imaginary as homeopathy to the extent the claim is it is any different from PT.

Now Clear has broken considerably away from its chiro base in my opinion (for example I have never heard one of those guys mention "subluxation" to their credit) but they have to start ponying up some evidence soon. It's an uphill battle though give the piss-poor training at chiro schools (see other thread) but it can be done... people Like Morningstar can think and write clearly and J. Woggon can write clearly but tends to include demonstrably counterfactual material in his writings. To his credit he admits some of this but he needs to check his facts far more carefully going forward.

Chiropractors are not trained in surgery, just like surgeons aren't trained in chiropractic. And in all fairness to the opinions on this forum, I do agree that the general chiropractor without any further training in scoliosis treatment shouldn't be treating scoliosis patients. But beyond the basic education, there are a multitude of continuing education classes, seminars and certifications that these doctors, yes, they are doctors, can obtain after their chiropractic education is done.

But unless the continuing education is evidence-based it is nonsense. If it isn't you are going to end up with another subluxation situation on your hands and therefore another black eye on chiro.

I saw the post about comparison about medical education and chiropractic and I don't think it is a fair comparison in that both fields are completely different so how can you compare?

Well, aren't chiro schools constantly claiming they are comparable to med school? Don't they claim to have a huge overlap in classwork? I can send you a link showing this. I don't want to post it because it contains a lot of nonsense.

I do believe that alot of animosity towards the profession is a fear of the unknown and/or understanding the profession.

It's unknown because nobody has ever ponied up any evidence for it. And folks SHOULD be fearful of non-evidence-based modalities else they end up with chanting and voodoo and such.

I have seen references to "subluxations" and curing the world...blah blah blah..but have any of you spoke with a chiropractor that is biomechanically based with backgrounds in physics, human kinetics and neuromuscular reeducation?

If this is real training then do orthopedic surgeons also get this training or only chiros?

The CLEAR Institute, I have noticed, is really trying to make a difference within the scoliosis community. And even though you may see websites that steer you away from surgery, I am sure you will see surgical sites that promote it. A surgeon is going to want to do surgery. A chiropractor is going to want to utilize non-invasive means to achieve an outcome.

Ah but the reasons are different. If a surgeon suggest surgery it is because the EVIDENCE tells him that that is the best hope for the patient.

A chiro suggests a non-invasive approach DESPITE a LACK of evidence because they are not trained in the only modality that has evidence of efficacy - surgery.

Huge difference.

Everyone, not only Clear chiros, want an effective non-invasive approach. Do you have evidence Clear alters the natural history? If not, do you tell people you are experimenting on them and that there is no evidence yet?

Why are some on this group so steadfast against a group that is only trying to find a better way to deal with scoliosis and to truly understand the nature of the condition?

Because you are charging huge prices for an experimental modality that you don't know can change the natural history. It might but it hasn't been shown yet.

A group that is trying to control the curve in its early stages so that it won't progress to surgical status...is that so wrong? Isn't that what we all want? Do we really want our kids going through surgery if we don't have to? What have your experiences been to warrant such an attack so quickly?

Yes the key is "trying" to control the curve in the early stages. You don't know that now. Do you understand how incredibly hard it would be for anyone to SHOW that is the case? The background natural history on small curves is that most will not progress. Do you simply assume that if a curve doesn't progress or even resolves while being treated then it must have been the treatment worked? Is your success rate with small curves in fact identical to the natural history?

Just my point of view. I am sure someone will have something to say about it. Please be kind as I just joined this site and would really like to stay!
All in the spirit of fairness....

I hope you stay and answer the questions for the bunnies.

[titaniumed]

Elisa

He has a good one. It looks like a 80-90 thoracic curve. It will be interesting to see what they say on this. If I had to guess, I would say T2-L1.

BTW, I was a King 1 with twin 50s at age 16.

Ed

[Elisa]

Yes, his spine is nasty that's for sure and to think he 'appeared' to be normal about a year ago. Shocking.

Looking at the pics and descriptions of curve classifications, I'm thinking he has a Type IV. What do you think Ed? Of course we're just guessing here and we truly won't know until he has been diagnosed properly hopefully SOON!

King-Moe Type IV

The King Moe type IV curve is a very long thoracic curve with a marked trunk decompensation. It is not until the lower lumbar region, usually at L4 that the curve reaches back to the midline. The L4 vertebral body still tilts into the curve. These long C-shaped thoracic or thoracolumbar curves really lend themselves best to treatment via a posterior instrumentation. The correct level inferiorly will depend on the bending films to determine which of the lower lumbar vertebra completely bends backward to the neutral position.

Edit: Pooka's previous post is in reference to page 1, post #15 here on this thread. Just thought I'd mention it b/c it took me a while to find where she was quoting from.