Flerc,
I understand that this thread was clearly meant to be between you and Sharon. The only thing wrong I can see with my logic post is that we were looking at things two different ways and chose two different values for A and B. Clearly I was not following your line of thought in this matter. I will defer the rest of this back to you and Sharon. It might have been better communicated through PM. That way everyone else wouldn't have been sucked into the conversation that was meant only for Sharon.
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Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostFirst of all, none of this has anything to do with intelligence. We are talking about having or not having specific knowledge about the fact/evidence cases for various treatments. Everyone here can educate themselves by gaining knowledge. Nothing here that we lay folks talk about rises to the level of rocket surgery so intelligence doesn't come into the picture.
Second, I claim that the reason desperate people turn to alternative treatments is that they are under the mistaken impression that there is evidence that they work. They are simply mistaken. Remember, alternative medicine that works is called "medicine." I do not believe anyone would drop thousands of dollars if they understood the state of evidence for these treatments. I also do not think many kids would wear a 23 hour/day hard brace if they were told that while surgeons hope it works, they don't claim to have good evidence it works. That is an distinction that is a difference.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostDoes that answer it?
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostFirst of all, I replie to your previous "demand" because you weren't specific about who you were talking to and we've had some lengthy discussion on this thread.
Certainly I only showed you a wrong conclusion you did when I demanded you about something inconsistent with the Rohrer I knew. And certainly as I said you I decide to believe is really the same, but here something strange is happening. But it not worry me. I believe that someday this thread will end and all what happened here even your offenses to me will be definitely deleted from my memory and I hope the same happens with you so we’ll continuos with our old chats as ever we did.
Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostYes, by the title of your thread, this is exactly what I infer, "that (you) think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse." So what is it EXACTLY that you find perverse and what do you consider Western Medicine?[/B]
A lot that has been said on this thread has not been made clear, so inferences have to be made. If you would clarify this perverse thing you talk about IN RELATION TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD that would clear things up.
Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..
But the post began saying that:
..and that all the other health professionals are criminals, non surgical treatments donīt works, cannot helps noone to avoid surgery, people believing in them are desperate/stupid
I was not able to write a title so long so I used dots expresing the continuation. All that, is what I wanted to say in the title.
..
And the claim continued
and as I said you here
Originally posted by flerc View PostNot use this thread to do your work (your reason to be here). Try to be respectful. Tkare has a serious problem and need this thread for help. She not needs to be convinced for you about anything.
I replied here (this thread)
Obviously I was continuing a discussion in the quoted thread. Is difficult for me to imagine that someone reading all this, don’t realize it.
Even I quote one of hers posts of that thread
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostConvincing is the worst! Convincing is the worst!
Surely it will be more clear the title if it begins with her name, but so many characters are not allowed.
But certainly just only that part of the real title explain my demand, regardless what may be Western Medicine for me. Sure CLEAR and Schroth are out of it. Just only this obvious property (that nobody here ignore) telling what I was refering to is enough to understand what I was claiming.
Note I said ‘convince’ not promote. Don’t you believe is perverse to convince (as the title ever said) about something you refuse to prove is true?. If someone says something as ‘Well, my son has a big curve but I not believe scoliosis may be harmful for noone’ of course nobody may say it could be something perverse to convince him he is wrong and if someone say that he is ignorant/stupid/crazy/insane/desperate/not evidence-based and so on, of course is right. It’s just only one example to explain you what I mean of course.
But I was refering to something very different. I think is also clear what means the title saying ‘ is the only option’ .. or not?
Of course I was refering that if something may give to someone a chance to avoid something terrible, then is an option.
So if you are not sure that something out the medical community cannot offer someone a chance (even as rolling the dice) to solve his serious problem, mainly if nothing else may give that chance, then you must to agree with me that is perverse to convince about the contrary.
I really hope you can now understand what I said.Last edited by flerc; 03-02-2013, 03:34 PM.
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Originally posted by flerc View PostCertainly I don't remember just only one misunderstanding in all our previous chats.. I suppose the interference or I don’t know what really may be, is circumscribed only to this thread, I hope that.
What you said is confusing because it would be reasonable to infer that I think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse. Do you believe I said this? If I did it please quote it but with the context as I did once refering to something you have said.
Yes, by the title of your thread, this is exactly what I infer, "that (you) think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse." So what is it EXACTLY that you find perverse and what do you consider Western Medicine?
A lot that has been said on this thread has not been made clear, so inferences have to be made. If you would clarify this perverse thing you talk about IN RELATION TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD that would clear things up.
It would have certainly been less stressful in communicating with you and saved on the anger or hurt feelings, etc. BECAUSE of the inferences you were also making about what others said. I think there may really be a language barrier going on. You speak English very well, but I'm sure expressing your thoughts consicesly in Spanish is much easier for you. So, once again, please define the perverse thing as it relates to the theme of your thread.
Thank you.
Just one more thought. I've never had trouble like this in communicating with you. THIS thread is a first, and honestly I don't see why it was necessary for things to get so fired up. We've always had free exchange of thoughts without any rudeness or demands, etc. I'm honestly baffled by what's going on here. You are usually so polite.Last edited by rohrer01; 03-01-2013, 06:07 PM.
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Originally posted by flerc View PostMaybe I was not clear enough
So I say it in different words:
If someone here suggest that a chance (even low as rolling the dice) for someone in the difficult situation you said, may be trying with some non surgical treatment, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to do so hard accusation
Second, I claim that the reason desperate people turn to alternative treatments is that they are under the mistaken impression that there is evidence that they work. They are simply mistaken. Remember, alternative medicine that works is called "medicine." I do not believe anyone would drop thousands of dollars if they understood the state of evidence for these treatments. I also do not think many kids would wear a 23 hour/day hard brace if they were told that while surgeons hope it works, they don't claim to have good evidence it works. That is an distinction that is a difference.
Does that answer it?
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You are claiming people would call them crazy or ignorant but nobody has done that so your claim can't be substantiated.
I personally would not roll the dice in that manner because non-surgical treatments have NEVER been shown to correct a 50 degree curve (to stick with the example we were using), but I would not call them ignorant or crazy.
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Maybe I was not clear enough
Originally posted by flerc View PostIf someone suggests that rolling the dice as you said, with non surgical treatments, may be who knows? the best choice in his case, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to say that
If someone here suggest that a chance (even low as rolling the dice) for someone in the difficult situation you said, may be trying with some non surgical treatment, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to do so hard accusation
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Originally posted by mariaf View PostI don't understand what you are asking, or if there is even a question here, so I'll simply clarify what I said and exactly what I meant.
If my child had a curve of, say, 50 degrees, I would try tethering in the hopes of avoiding fusion based on the early results I have seen so far.
To repeat what others have said, you are the only one using words like "stupid/ignorant/crazy".
I, personally, would not, for example, try CLEAR to treat a 50 degree curve because it's been around a lot longer than tethering and has yet to produce any proof it can reduce any curve, let alone a significant one.
Once again, this is what I would do and I have never referred to anyone else or their choices as crazy/ignorant/etc. As Rohrer pointed out, those were YOUR words, and nobody else used them.
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Originally posted by flerc View PostIf someone suggests that rolling the dice as you said, with non surgical treatments, may be who knows? the best choice in his case, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to say that
If my child had a curve of, say, 50 degrees, I would try tethering in the hopes of avoiding fusion based on the early results I have seen so far.
To repeat what others have said, you are the only one using words like "stupid/ignorant/crazy".
I, personally, would not, for example, try CLEAR to treat a 50 degree curve because it's been around a lot longer than tethering and has yet to produce any proof it can reduce any curve, let alone a significant one.
Once again, this is what I would do and I have never referred to anyone else or their choices as crazy/ignorant/etc. As Rohrer pointed out, those were YOUR words, and nobody else used them.Last edited by mariaf; 03-01-2013, 01:41 PM.
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Originally posted by flerc View Post
First of all, do you agree with my assertion []
[the categorical assertion
'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same
is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:
‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]
or not?
I'm waiting for the answer (Y/N) .. or the updating/deleting of all those posts.
Why you never reply this? Are you waiting another post of someone loosing the focus of my demand as happened some times before?
Is a great pitty there not be here private threads, where only some members may posts and the other only may read it.
Only you and I! Or everyone with the condition of not loose the focus anymore.Last edited by flerc; 03-01-2013, 01:45 PM.
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Originally posted by mariaf View PostI think in the case of the larger curves, the patients/parents wanted to try something to avoid fusion, so they are rolling the dice. If I were in that situation, I'm not sure I'd do anything differently than they are.
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostBracing is NOT to claimed to reduce curves in AIS because it never does apparently.
'There is no evidence about any kind of brace has reduced any curve in AIS'
Which of those would someone use to convince about that Bracing is NOT claimed to reduce curves in AIS because it can't?
Originally posted by flerc View Post
First of all, do you agree with my assertion []
[the categorical assertion
'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same
is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:
‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]
or not?
I'm waiting for the answer (Y/N) .. or the updating/deleting of all those posts.
Last edited by flerc; 03-01-2013, 01:13 PM.
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostWhat does? Is it sweeping generalized statements?
What you said is confusing because it would be reasonable to infer that I think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse. Do you believe I said this? If I did it please quote it but with the context as I did once refering to something you have said.
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostFlerc,
You are the only one who said this: ‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]
I can't redact what YOU said. And, yes, what you are asking is very confusing since you yourself are the one making the sweeping categorical claims about the "western medical community". You MUST DEFINE what you mean by that before any of this makes sense. You agree to the nonfusion surgeries made by this group and deny the fusion surgery part. Is that what you mean? To me, you have to work with what you have. You can accept or refuse any treatment you wish, but what you can't do is lump treatments into a category and then deny the whole category. What is the other side? Is it Western Medicine vs. Eastern Medicine?
You find me the post where I said EXACTLY what you quoted and I'll delete it. Fair?
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Flerc,
You are the only one who said this: ‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]
I can't redact what YOU said. And, yes, what you are asking is very confusing since you yourself are the one making the sweeping categorical claims about the "western medical community". You MUST DEFINE what you mean by that before any of this makes sense. You agree to the nonfusion surgeries made by this group and deny the fusion surgery part. Is that what you mean? To me, you have to work with what you have. You can accept or refuse any treatment you wish, but what you can't do is lump treatments into a category and then deny the whole category. What is the other side? Is it Western Medicine vs. Eastern Medicine?
You find me the post where I said EXACTLY what you quoted and I'll delete it. Fair?
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