Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[Pooka1]

The only thing that matters is evidence. The rest of this might as well be singing.

[flerc]

Do you want I quote have many threads here began talking about the topic and then turned to another else? And certainly I not think members doing it gave a justification as I gave.

First of all, do you agree with my assertion []

[the categorical assertion
'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

or not?

And certainly Pooka1, it has not any sense to contimue talking about this with you any more..

I take your silent as a Yes. Of course is something so much convincing to hear this.. Oh my good! There is no evidence about just only one case! Why may I expect to be the first? What kind of ignorant desperate idiot am I?
If someone is sure to have only one option, of course will decide to take it and of course trying to think it will be a good option and having a great hope that his life would be better.
What if then, even the surgery was a great success, he realize his life is worst, the worst he never imagines could be?
And what if then he sees an evidence that a non surgical method prevented one surgery? What do you think he may feel against you and this forum?

But sure not worry you to think that.. sure you may argue something convincing in order to continues doing your job here free of guilt.
So say what you wants and continues doing your job for ever. Certainly at least by now I have not any interest in entering to this thread any more, but I will not feel me any more an accomplice seeing what happens here and not doing anything against it.

I have felt interest again in this thread when I have read comments about braces.. something wrong?

You perfectly know what the OWMC is for me and as I said to Rohrer01, I gave an enough definition here in order to undertand what I was saying and quoted a thread where is absolutely what means for me and not only for me of course.

But you have all the time of the world and certainly you are not wasting your time, you are doing your work here.. is not my case so I don't want to talk about something loosing the focus and leading to not ending discussions as you ever does when you cannot show rational arguments (allways as I remember).. you try to fed up doing it and of course is working., but anyway, when you responds me that question and not refuse any more to put in evidence (talking with me about it), how much unethical is what you are doing here I'll respond
what is for me the OWMC, ok?

[Pooka1]

Fer, this bracing discussion is not the topic of your original post. I agree with Rohrer that you started this thread about non-western medicine and yet you won't even define what you mean.

I think your topic was alternative treatments by lay people such as most of the ones you have posted about. You want people to disprove those, yes? No trained person has the time to disprove every wacky idea that pops into a lay person's head.

Please define what non-western medicine is in your mind and then pony up the evidence for same.

Thanks in advance.

First of all, you are questioning my intelligence by stating that I will never understand... What you are saying here in your thread is not consistent. You want people (Sharon) to quit insisting that the "Official Western Medicine Community" is the only option... It is a straight forward question to ask WHO the "Official Western Medicine Community" is. Define it an state what you are comparing it to. Alternative therapy is too vague of a term because many "alternative" therapies are within the "Official Western Medicine Community". I have read the whole thread. You admitted NOT reading posts before answering. If you don't believe me then go back and re-read your own thread. It is NOT my belief that you are making demands. This is what YOU said:



Now you claim that this thread is about bracing? You have said several times that you have nothing to talk with me anymore. Your reason? Is it because I keep steering your thread back to the original topic that you now seem to be avoiding? Is bracing the "alternative" treatment that you are angry about being denounced? If so, would it have not been so much easier to state that from the beginning? Oops, bracing is accepted in the "Official Western Medicine Community", notice I didn't leave out any words. I'm still waiting for you to clarify your demands (besides the one where you want Sharon to redact her statement) and clarify what the "Official Western Medicine Community" means to you. If you can't do that, this whole thread is pointless.

bold mine

[Pooka1]

Exactly! I may agree they are not high but because the protocol as I said, not because braces!

How do you know this? This is only a faith position, not a scientific position. NOT useful.

Up today Vbs and others are not available in every country and many people need a solution today!
And certainly I suppose many people may be afraid about secondary effects.. anyway of course is the options would only be something useless and dangerous as some people here are saying braces are, fussion (or a high risk to having it) and Vbs and others.. of course if Vbs and others would be the only one rational option but I don't believe is what is happening today. If someone not agree must to give a rational justification why, as I did.

Braces are only an option if they work. What is the evidence they work? If there is no evidence then people are bracing on faith. NOT useful.

[flerc]

I think I understand though that you were just giving an example of what would happen IF the odds were that high

Exactly!

but they aren't so it's probably best to deal with the facts and options as they exist today.

..
I may agree they are not high but because the protocol as I said, not because braces!

Up today Vbs and others are not available in every country and many people need a solution today!
And certainly I suppose many people may be afraid about secondary effects.. anyway of course is the options would only be something useless and dangerous as some people here are saying braces are, fussion (or a high risk to having it) and Vbs and others.. of course if Vbs and others would be the only one rational option but I don't believe is what is happening today. If someone not agree must to give a rational justification why, as I did.

[mariaf]

[QUOTE=flerc;147888]

Yes, Parents assumes of course some chance of succesful and decides in order to that chance. For parents assuming for instance around 90%, I'm sure at least the 95% would not refuse brace.

I'm not sure I agree that 95% of parents woud choose bracing their child for several years over VBS, particularly if the child was adamantly opposed to bracing - but I assume you are talking about choosing bracing over fusion. That, too, gets dicey because often it's not a choice between the two anymore with the emergence of things like VBS and tethering.

What I mean is - let's say a child is told to wear a brace for 3 or 4 years until they are done growing. That child would very often also be a candidate for either VBS or tethering. (Not so much tethering because tethering is performed on curves above 35 degrees, so if we are talking for example about a child with a 45-50 degree curve, I think we can all agree that bracing would be futile. But there are also cases where tethering is performed on curves of 35-40 degrees, so I will include it in the discussion).

I know if they said to me when my son was facing 8 or 9 YEARS of full-time bracing "here, make him wear this brace his entire childhood and there is a 90% chance he won't ever require any sort of surgery" I would still have opted for VBS to give him the chance at a normal childhood. That's just me though.

In any event, I don't think we should spend too much time discussing what parents would do if the bracing success rate was 90% because clearly it isn't. I'm not sure anyone even knows what it is. We may never know.

I think I understand though that you were just giving an example of what would happen IF the odds were that high, but they aren't so it's probably best to deal with the facts and options as they exist today.

[flerc]

[QUOTE=mariaf;147885]

If you mean how likely is it that bracing MAY avoid fusion, we may never know that answer to that. Certainly nobody knows the answer now. So I am not sure what your point is here. Maybe it's a language issue and you mean something else. If so, please clarify - thanks.

Yes, Parents assumes of course some chance of succesful and decides in order to that chance. For parents assuming for instance around 90%, I'm sure at least the 95% would not refuse brace.

[flerc]

Flerc,

I'm not sure I am understanding you. Are you asking 'would parents brace if it WILL avoid surgery'? That question would be pointless because nobody can say it WILL avoid fusion.

Again, maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

I also would NEVER put my child in a Milwaukee brace even with a guarantee of avoiding fusion for life.

I was doing the question of this answer.

[mariaf]

[QUOTE=flerc;147883]

It seems we may continues for ever.. I may say teens only have a teenager.. adults only have an adulthood..
it depends how great is the MAY.. and you may replies something else.. There are not polls in this forum???

If you mean how likely is it that bracing MAY avoid fusion, we may never know that answer to that. Certainly nobody knows the answer now. So I am not sure what your point is here. Maybe it's a language issue and you mean something else. If so, please clarify - thanks.

[mariaf]

I believe Leahdragonfly understood me, obviously it has not sense to say MAY instead of WILL as I should have to say.

Flerc,

I'm not sure I am understanding you. Are you asking 'would parents brace if it WILL avoid surgery'? That question would be pointless because nobody can say it WILL avoid fusion.

Again, maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

[flerc]

[QUOTE=mariaf;147880]

I also would NEVER put my child in a Milwaukee brace even with a guarantee of avoiding fusion for life. Life is very short. /QUOTE]

Life is very short indeed - and for a child who is braced all during childhood (as would have been the case for my son without VBS) they don't get any do-overs.

Kids only get one childhood.

For many children, adolescents and their parents, spending one's childhood in a brace in the hopes it MAY avoid surgery just isn't worth it.

It seems we may continues for ever.. I may say teens only have a teenager.. adults only have an adulthood..
it depends how great is the MAY.. and you may replies something else.. There are not polls in this forum???

[flerc]

What is the evidence a fusion can be avoided by bracing?

Try to find it. But not get conclusions assuming there are not.

[flerc]

The operative word here is MAY avoid fusion.

But nobody seems to know what the odds are on that being the case - or not.

I believe Leahdragonfly understood me, obviously it has not sense to say MAY instead of WILL as I should have to say.

[mariaf]

[QUOTE=Pooka1;147859]I also would NEVER put my child in a Milwaukee brace even with a guarantee of avoiding fusion for life. Life is very short. /QUOTE]

Life is very short indeed - and for a child who is braced all during childhood (as would have been the case for my son without VBS) they don't get any do-overs.

Kids only get one childhood.

For many children, adolescents and their parents, spending one's childhood in a brace in the hopes it MAY avoid surgery just isn't worth it.

[Pooka1]

Or maybe you don't agree because you have not a great percentaje of vertebras fixed for ever or you never was facing that possibility. Just spit-balling here? Now I agree.

What is the evidence a fusion can be avoided by bracing? It is therefore irrelevant whether I know or don't know what that is like. All I can do is accept reality. Just because we want there to be an effective treatment to avoid fusion does't magic it into existence.