Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[flerc]

What does? Is it sweeping generalized statements?

Certainly I don't remember just only one misunderstanding in all our previous chats.. I suppose the interference or I don’t know what really may be, is circumscribed only to this thread, I hope that.

What you said is confusing because it would be reasonable to infer that I think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse. Do you believe I said this? If I did it please quote it but with the context as I did once refering to something you have said.

[flerc]

Bracing is NOT to claimed to reduce curves in AIS because it never does apparently.

GOOD! Do you not agree is a big difference between that sentence and this assertion:
'There is no evidence about any kind of brace has reduced any curve in AIS'

Which of those would someone use to convince about that Bracing is NOT claimed to reduce curves in AIS because it can't?

First of all, do you agree with my assertion []

[the categorical assertion
'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

or not?

I'm waiting for the answer (Y/N) .. or the updating/deleting of all those posts.

[flerc]

I think in the case of the larger curves, the patients/parents wanted to try something to avoid fusion, so they are rolling the dice. If I were in that situation, I'm not sure I'd do anything differently than they are.

If someone suggests that rolling the dice as you said, with non surgical treatments, may be who knows? the best choice in his case, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to say that

[flerc]

First of all, do you agree with my assertion []

[the categorical assertion
'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery' and hundreds meaning the same

is at least a so much convincing argument to believe what follows in those posts:

‘people believing some of those treatments may help them to avoid a surgery are idiots, ignorant or desperates’]

or not?

I'm waiting for the answer (Y/N) .. or the updating/deleting of all those posts.

Why you never reply this? Are you waiting another post of someone loosing the focus of my demand as happened some times before?
Is a great pitty there not be here private threads, where only some members may posts and the other only may read it.
Only you and I! Or everyone with the condition of not loose the focus anymore.

[mariaf]

If someone suggests that rolling the dice as you said, with non surgical treatments, may be who knows? the best choice in his case, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to say that

I don't understand what you are asking, or if there is even a question here, so I'll simply clarify what I said and exactly what I meant.

If my child had a curve of, say, 50 degrees, I would try tethering in the hopes of avoiding fusion based on the early results I have seen so far.

To repeat what others have said, you are the only one using words like "stupid/ignorant/crazy".

I, personally, would not, for example, try CLEAR to treat a 50 degree curve because it's been around a lot longer than tethering and has yet to produce any proof it can reduce any curve, let alone a significant one.

Once again, this is what I would do and I have never referred to anyone else or their choices as crazy/ignorant/etc. As Rohrer pointed out, those were YOUR words, and nobody else used them.

[flerc]

I don't understand what you are asking, or if there is even a question here, so I'll simply clarify what I said and exactly what I meant.

If my child had a curve of, say, 50 degrees, I would try tethering in the hopes of avoiding fusion based on the early results I have seen so far.

To repeat what others have said, you are the only one using words like "stupid/ignorant/crazy".

I, personally, would not, for example, try CLEAR to treat a 50 degree curve because it's been around a lot longer than tethering and has yet to produce any proof it can reduce any curve, let alone a significant one.

Once again, this is what I would do and I have never referred to anyone else or their choices as crazy/ignorant/etc. As Rohrer pointed out, those were YOUR words, and nobody else used them.

Mariaf, I supposed you have read the title of this thread and we are in it. I believe together with the first post is clear enough for whom I was saying that and of course are not you or Rohrer.

[flerc]

Maybe I was not clear enough

If someone suggests that rolling the dice as you said, with non surgical treatments, may be who knows? the best choice in his case, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to say that

So I say it in different words:

If someone here suggest that a chance (even low as rolling the dice) for someone in the difficult situation you said, may be trying with some non surgical treatment, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to do so hard accusation

[mariaf]

You are claiming people would call them crazy or ignorant but nobody has done that so your claim can't be substantiated.

I personally would not roll the dice in that manner because non-surgical treatments have NEVER been shown to correct a 50 degree curve (to stick with the example we were using), but I would not call them ignorant or crazy.

[Pooka1]

Maybe I was not clear enough



So I say it in different words:

If someone here suggest that a chance (even low as rolling the dice) for someone in the difficult situation you said, may be trying with some non surgical treatment, immediately would be accused of stupid/ignorant/perverse/crazy... and without defending the arguments given in order to do so hard accusation

First of all, none of this has anything to do with intelligence. We are talking about having or not having specific knowledge about the fact/evidence cases for various treatments. Everyone here can educate themselves by gaining knowledge. Nothing here that we lay folks talk about rises to the level of rocket surgery so intelligence doesn't come into the picture.

Second, I claim that the reason desperate people turn to alternative treatments is that they are under the mistaken impression that there is evidence that they work. They are simply mistaken. Remember, alternative medicine that works is called "medicine." I do not believe anyone would drop thousands of dollars if they understood the state of evidence for these treatments. I also do not think many kids would wear a 23 hour/day hard brace if they were told that while surgeons hope it works, they don't claim to have good evidence it works. That is an distinction that is a difference.

Does that answer it?

[rohrer01]

Certainly I don't remember just only one misunderstanding in all our previous chats.. I suppose the interference or I don’t know what really may be, is circumscribed only to this thread, I hope that.

What you said is confusing because it would be reasonable to infer that I think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse. Do you believe I said this? If I did it please quote it but with the context as I did once refering to something you have said.

First of all, I replie to your previous "demand" because you weren't specific about who you were talking to and we've had some lengthy discussion on this thread.

Yes, by the title of your thread, this is exactly what I infer, "that (you) think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse." So what is it EXACTLY that you find perverse and what do you consider Western Medicine?

A lot that has been said on this thread has not been made clear, so inferences have to be made. If you would clarify this perverse thing you talk about IN RELATION TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD that would clear things up.

It would have certainly been less stressful in communicating with you and saved on the anger or hurt feelings, etc. BECAUSE of the inferences you were also making about what others said. I think there may really be a language barrier going on. You speak English very well, but I'm sure expressing your thoughts consicesly in Spanish is much easier for you. So, once again, please define the perverse thing as it relates to the theme of your thread.

Thank you.

Just one more thought. I've never had trouble like this in communicating with you. THIS thread is a first, and honestly I don't see why it was necessary for things to get so fired up. We've always had free exchange of thoughts without any rudeness or demands, etc. I'm honestly baffled by what's going on here. You are usually so polite.

[flerc]

First of all, I replie to your previous "demand" because you weren't specific about who you were talking to and we've had some lengthy discussion on this thread.

Rohrer, certainly I was not demanding amything to you in that post. I did mot suggest the cause of the ‘interference’ or distortion I’m realy seeing here. Something as a demand competition with you is far of what I’m intending here.. if not, I could showed for instance the wrong of your explanation about logics (independently the values assigned to A and B) when you interpreted I was asking to you something about this science.
Certainly I only showed you a wrong conclusion you did when I demanded you about something inconsistent with the Rohrer I knew. And certainly as I said you I decide to believe is really the same, but here something strange is happening. But it not worry me. I believe that someday this thread will end and all what happened here even your offenses to me will be definitely deleted from my memory and I hope the same happens with you so we’ll continuos with our old chats as ever we did.

Yes, by the title of your thread, this is exactly what I infer, "that (you) think anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help is perverse." So what is it EXACTLY that you find perverse and what do you consider Western Medicine?[/B]

A lot that has been said on this thread has not been made clear, so inferences have to be made. If you would clarify this perverse thing you talk about IN RELATION TO THE TITLE OF YOUR THREAD that would clear things up.

The title in fact was this:
Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

But the post began saying that:

..and that all the other health professionals are criminals, non surgical treatments donīt works, cannot helps noone to avoid surgery, people believing in them are desperate/stupid
I was not able to write a title so long so I used dots expresing the continuation. All that, is what I wanted to say in the title.
..
And the claim continued

and as I said you here

Not use this thread to do your work (your reason to be here). Try to be respectful. Tkare has a serious problem and need this thread for help. She not needs to be convinced for you about anything.
I replied here (this thread)

stop to dirtying other threads in order to make your work.

Obviously I was continuing a discussion in the quoted thread. Is difficult for me to imagine that someone reading all this, don’t realize it.
Even I quote one of hers posts of that thread

Convincing is the worst! Convincing is the worst!

And certainly she replied me inmediately, also it seems that Mariaf and Jess interpreted perfectly for whom I was saying what I said.. So I not agree it may suggest your interpretation about I was talking to anyone who promotes Western Medicine as being the only source of help.

Surely it will be more clear the title if it begins with her name, but so many characters are not allowed.
But certainly just only that part of the real title explain my demand, regardless what may be Western Medicine for me. Sure CLEAR and Schroth are out of it. Just only this obvious property (that nobody here ignore) telling what I was refering to is enough to understand what I was claiming.

Note I said ‘convince’ not promote. Don’t you believe is perverse to convince (as the title ever said) about something you refuse to prove is true?. If someone says something as ‘Well, my son has a big curve but I not believe scoliosis may be harmful for noone’ of course nobody may say it could be something perverse to convince him he is wrong and if someone say that he is ignorant/stupid/crazy/insane/desperate/not evidence-based and so on, of course is right. It’s just only one example to explain you what I mean of course.

But I was refering to something very different. I think is also clear what means the title saying ‘ is the only option’ .. or not?
Of course I was refering that if something may give to someone a chance to avoid something terrible, then is an option.

So if you are not sure that something out the medical community cannot offer someone a chance (even as rolling the dice) to solve his serious problem, mainly if nothing else may give that chance, then you must to agree with me that is perverse to convince about the contrary.
I really hope you can now understand what I said.

[flerc]

First of all, none of this has anything to do with intelligence. We are talking about having or not having specific knowledge about the fact/evidence cases for various treatments. Everyone here can educate themselves by gaining knowledge. Nothing here that we lay folks talk about rises to the level of rocket surgery so intelligence doesn't come into the picture.

Second, I claim that the reason desperate people turn to alternative treatments is that they are under the mistaken impression that there is evidence that they work. They are simply mistaken. Remember, alternative medicine that works is called "medicine." I do not believe anyone would drop thousands of dollars if they understood the state of evidence for these treatments. I also do not think many kids would wear a 23 hour/day hard brace if they were told that while surgeons hope it works, they don't claim to have good evidence it works. That is an distinction that is a difference.

If someone wants to know what do you think about people trying with alternative treatments, may find inmediatly tons of yours posts in this forum.

Does that answer it?

Answer what? I did not ask anything in that post. If you refer to the question I asked you for days ago, of course not.

[rohrer01]

Flerc,
I understand that this thread was clearly meant to be between you and Sharon. The only thing wrong I can see with my logic post is that we were looking at things two different ways and chose two different values for A and B. Clearly I was not following your line of thought in this matter. I will defer the rest of this back to you and Sharon. It might have been better communicated through PM. That way everyone else wouldn't have been sucked into the conversation that was meant only for Sharon.

[Pooka1]

Flerc,
I understand that this thread was clearly meant to be between you and Sharon. The only thing wrong I can see with my logic post is that we were looking at things two different ways and chose two different values for A and B. Clearly I was not following your line of thought in this matter. I will defer the rest of this back to you and Sharon. It might have been better communicated through PM. That way everyone else wouldn't have been sucked into the conversation that was meant only for Sharon.

Don't leave me here alone!!!!

[flerc]

Flerc,
I understand that this thread was clearly meant to be between you and Sharon. The only thing wrong I can see with my logic post is that we were looking at things two different ways and chose two different values for A and B. Clearly I was not following your line of thought in this matter. I will defer the rest of this back to you and Sharon. It might have been better communicated through PM. That way everyone else wouldn't have been sucked into the conversation that was meant only for Sharon.

Rohrer, of course I was never firing you from this thread. As I said before, I have not any problem in the participation of everyone, while the focus will not be lost anymore. And certainly if you understand now what I'm saying and we may be sure that the 'interference' ended, it's okay for me if you want to remains here, even if you also now believe I'm saying something wrong.
For instance if you or someone else believes is not something perverse to convince people through this forum that only an ignorant desperate may hope a help from non surgical methods or is really right yo say (in order to justify the last) 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery'.. while not refuse to test the arguments given to say what may be said, is ok for me.

Thanks for the advice of continue this by PM, but I suppose you understand it could have not any sense.