Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[flerc]

[COLOR="#0000CD"]
i am not immoral for agreeing with or disagreeing with an idea...

specially if the idea is to do what the title of this tread says and do it in an immoral way.

[COLOR="#0000CD"]
and i am no one's "older accomplice"

Are you trying to say I should have to say you are the 'oldest'?.. I think you are right. Sorry!

[hdugger]

Is really incredible We are the bullies here! MY GOD!!!!

I'm calling your wife, Flerc.

It really is OK. Sometimes people just don't like you, or don't get you. You sort of have to let them. It's not the law that people have to see you as a good man fighting the good fight. Some people might just think you're flailing your arms like a mad man. People get to decide what they want to decide about you. We're not trying to discuss exercise, or some other conservative treatment. They're not disrupting our work. Let them decide not to like you, or me, or whoever. It's fine. That kind of stuff you just have to let go. If there's one thing I've learned on the internet, it's that some people don't think I'm nearly as nice as I think I am.

If you start arguing your reputation, you're going to find that even you start to think you're not as nice as you think you are (or, however you'd say that). If you start going tit-for-tat (good lord, what can you think I'm saying) you're going to start trading angry post for angry post, and then we're never going to get anywhere.

You can call out behavior, you can point out the things you want to change, but I'd really, really strongly recommend letting up on the "immoral", "accomplice" language. No matter what is said to you, you have to respond back *less* harshly. Otherwise, we create the ugliness we're trying to cure.

[Edit: Added quotes around "immoral" "accomplice"]

[hdugger]

Are you trying to say I should have to say you are the 'oldest'?.. I think you are right. Sorry!

Hey!! As a person of a certain age, I tell you we are *not* going to start snipping at people about their age!!! I am looking up your wife's number *right* now.

[flerc]

No please .. and of course I was not referring to the age.. it would not be a good bussines for me..

[Susie*Bee]

Flerc-- by "boat", I just meant the big scoliosis problem. The main problem that drew us to the forum to begin with.

[jrnyc]

interesting that a long post by hdugger about what is interesting, what
isn't, who writes interesting posts and who does not, who has interesting
ideas and who does not...was deleted...it was a long post...
seemed to have had instructions for who flerc ought to spend time paying
attention to and who he should not...

thus, i realized we can not all be as interesting, brilliant and genius as
hdugger...and i realized how humility was nowhere to be found...
good that there is ONE person on forum who KNOWS what is interesting
to all and what is not....
good for ONE person to make the rules of who his friends should write
or respond to, who to ignore...
thank goodness no one else has to think for themselves about what
constitutes interesting!

these types of blustering, argumentative threads have become
boring to me...and have nothing to offer of any use for any scoli
patients, in my opinion.

jess

[Pooka1]

so i am saying is to stop the name calling...
science stands on it's own...

jess

Jess, thank you for trying to inject reason and ration into this. I am forever grateful for you. :-)

What evidence can you show to someone who doesn't value evidence to show them they should be valuing evidence?

This is why this war on science will go on interminably.

[Pooka1]

She claimed she could wear it for two years and get a permanent curve reduction when it is only indicated for pain in adults. It did reduce her pain. There is no evidence an adult can wear a brace for two years and permanently reduce a curve. The moderator admonished her not to make the claim without evidence.

I am looking forward to foofer's radiographs and those of the other people Tom is helping. I know he doesn't have time to crunch the data but I can table and graph the data for him if that helps.

To further clarify and underline, the moderator also admonished her to limit her comments to her own experience and not make sweeping claims without evidence.

People have made some sweeping claims in these and other threads for the efficacy of conservative treatments and I look forward to seeing the evidence for the claims. This is one sure-fire way to sweep away skepticism and that is to post the evidence. If those methods work then we won't need a surgery section and this forum can be ENTIRELY PT with everyone's blessing.

There is a claim people are being harmed by being driven away. Prove it.

On the other hand, we have the following:

1. at least one case where the fusion in a child was longer for having tried and failed with a conservative treatment. Can we doubt there are others?
2. people openly advocating that radiographs are not necessary. (Nobody would know who Martha Hawes is if she didn't publish her serial radiographs. Does anyone seriously doubt that?)
3. people claiming that braces are harmful in the long term and counterproductive. (There is evidence bracing actually reduces curves in JIS for example)

THOSE are the dangerous claims that have no evidence to my knowledge.

[Pooka1]

All of you silent folk, start shouting!

Actually posting evidence works better than shouting. In fact it works perfectly.

[Pooka1]

Wow, it's the NSF version of the rapture

Here is a pet-sitting service for those who are raptured and leave their pets behind...

http://www.aftertherapturepetcare.com/

[Pooka1]

Originally Posted by rohrer01: "AND WORKED IT OUT VIA PM like ADULTS should."

No, not right. Wildly not right. How does your agreement via PM help the mother just figuring out how to work with a child in a brace, only to discover a thread where bracing parents are accused of lying to their children because their curve advanced. Did you PM that mother as well? How could you? She'd have left before she got to hello.

Here's an idea. Maybe parents should be consulting with TRAINED PROFESSIONALS and not random yahoos on the interwebs when it comes to serious medical conditions and possible treatments.

Call me crazy.

The woman in the testimonial said she felt lied to over bracing efficacy. The fact that I copied and pasted that makes the woman NOT feel lied to and makes me part of the story apparently. Strange world that.

I think there are people here who want to control information. I think they are okay with a surgeon telling a parent X but if I state THAT a surgeon told a parent X then that is somehow harmful. The fact of the surgeon stating it to a parent magically becomes irrelevant and we whirlwind into a state where the person relaying the information matters and the information is irrelevant.

Trying to be the unilateral gatekeeper on knowledge and resources will NOT stand. Nobody here can decide what other people should or should not read. You will NOT succeed on that endeavor. Who do you think you are?

I do NOT suggest certain frequent flyers in the research section should stop posting scientifically inaccurate material. I do suggest they stop complaining when someone with some science training corrects the material.

Those counterfactual posts do serve a purpose to show the abysmal state of science education in the US. Science education is constantly under assault and we are seeing the results in this forum.

Love,

Rohrer's pencil carrier

[Pooka1]

Just take my word, OK?

No. People should think for themselves. I take it from the bulk of your posts that you disagree.

[mariaf]

hey Sharon.
attacks on this forum of a personal nature have become outrageous...
they should not be allowed, in my opinion...

i will stand in anyone's boat...and i can't swim...who is attacked...
so i am IN Sharon's boat...
that means i am up for attack, i am sure...for no reason other than
defending Sharon...who needs no defense...
she is fine all on her own....BUT....
as a social worker and special ed teacher...I HATE BULLIES
there...bring it on if you want to...

personal attacks are sickening...to me and others...

jess

Yes, Jess - it seems it is OK to say "leave Susie alone" (just as an example) or "leave so-and-so alone", but if someone said "leave Sharon alone" they'd be attacked, labeled "cohorts" and included as part of her "immoral work" (a term that keeps being used in reference to Sharon's posts, but of course with no substantiation or explanation).

Maybe it's the New Yorker in us, but I really hate bullies too. Even my daughter has stood up for kids getting bullied in school - I suppose she gets it from me.

Funny, when I used to mention VBS several years ago, I was attacked MERCILESSLY by one poster in particular who doesn't seem to be around anymore. I was accused of "RECRUITING CHILDREN FOR EXPERIMENTATION" (yes, that's what was posted). This accusation was made simply because I shared my son's story and when another parent would ask for information on VBS I would share my experience, tell them what I knew and suggest they do additional research IF they were interested.

Reminds me of this situation because a few people took my back (although I, like Sharon, can take care of myself) and then there were those who claimed the other poster making the accusations did nothing wrong.

Joe O'Brien never put a stop to the attacks on me but fortunately I'm a big girl and was very grateful for those who supported me here, so I will ALWAYS open my mouth - just like my daughter did - if I feel someone is being bullied, singled out or treated differently than others.

It seems some people are hell bent on making everything personal rather than discussing ideas, which leads one to wonder why they avoiding those discussions.

[flerc]

Flerc-- by "boat", I just meant the big scoliosis problem. The main problem that drew us to the forum to begin with.

Susie, I understand what you said but the work Pooka1 and her accomplices are doing here not seems to be the work that someone worry about a personal scoliosis problem may do. Certainly they seem to be very worry about the possibility of people wanting to do something different to what the o. w. medical community says. Is extremely obvious their work here. I hope you understand me now how I say we are in absolutely different boats here.

[mariaf]

Susie, I understand what you said but the work Pooka1 and her accomplices are doing here not seems to be the work that someone worry about a personal scoliosis problem may do.

Flerc,

I have asked over and over again if we could stop the name calling, but I guess you don't see THAT as an obstruction to helping people. Better to waste time referring over and over again to "Pooka and her accomplices" - how is that helping those you claim to want to help?

I assume I am one of Sharon's "accomplices" because I dare ask that we stop attacking her and get back to discussing ideas rather than personalities because I thought that was what this forum was for. Rather, this thread seems to have become a forum for you and others to let off steam, spread sarcasm and continue personal attacks. Not very productive in my view, but what do I know?

When you say the work of Sharon and her accomplices "not seems to be the work that someone worry about apersonal scoliosis problem may do" can you please explain what you mean so that I can defend myself? Are you saying I don't care about people with scoliosis? (My track record would gravely dispute that). Are you saying I have never had to personally worry about someone with scoliosis? (Again, not accurate).

I know there is a language barrier and I honestly don't know what you meant.