Stop trying to convince that official western medical community is the only option..

[flerc]

I believe I’m not mistaken saying there is evidence that the principle behind braces works!

Of course ‘redirecting the growth force’ is not the unique ‘principle’ that should to be taken into account. and is not the only one working in braces.
It seems to be a fact something as a complex ‘Homeostasis’ system.. sure many here may explain it better.. apparently input signals arriving to the brain triggers orders to the neuromuscular system in order to keep the ‘right posture’. Propioception and vestibular system seems to be involved in it. I have read about something as a self body image the brain think must to be maintain. But the posture according to that image is not the right posture, is a curved posture and the brain is accustomed to it.
It seems after a time the body was forced to have a better posture, the brain is accustomed to the new posture and try to maintain it. I remember in other forum some members said that after surgery, they tended to keep an old and curved posture, of course impossible for them and after a time, they was accustomed to the new and straighter posture.

So braces are compatibles with this ‘principle’ too since a better posture is forced.

[Pooka1]

But please, copy the part when they talk about braces used under ALL the right conditions.

Why do you assume there are "right" conditions? What is the evidence there are "right" conditions?

[flerc]

If I would say the use of a cast for a broken leg need to accomplish certain conditions, you would ask me the evidence of such conditions?
Is the same of obvious for me in the case of braces. Is not for you?
But anyway, do you know about evidence saying there are not "right" conditions? Which?

[Pooka1]

If I would say the use of a cast need to accomplish certain conditions, you would ask me the evidence of such conditions?
Is the same of obvious for me in the case of braces. Is not for you?

You are assuming there is some right set of conditions where bracing would work. Why are you assuming that? Maybe there are no right conditions such that the treatment is not effective for most people.

But anyway, do you know about evidence saying there are not "right" conditions? Which?

Do you have evidence that leprechauns DO NOT exist? Which?

[flerc]

I'm saying there are certain conditions that need to be accomplished when someone use a brace.
If you want to kill a bear with a gun, there are also some conditions that need to be accomplished, for instance the gun should to have bullets, you should to shoot to the head of the bear not to yours..
I'm not asserting you could kill the bear, but if you say that is not possible and such conditions are not necessary.. prove it.
So..Prove braces don't works when are used under the right conditions!

[Pooka1]

I'm saying there are certain conditions that need to be accomplished when someone use a brace.

How do you know what they are?

[leahdragonfly]

Flerc,

I do not intent to enter this fray for long, but I just have to make two comments.

1. The Milwaukee brace has been largely abandoned by the medical community because it is considered to be inhumane. Would you like your daughter or son to wear this miserable contraption for years at a time?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwAw&dur=3498

I sure as hell wouldn't put it on my child for even one second.

2. VBS works by putting direct pressure on the growth plates which mechanically/physically causes the overgrowth of the affected side to slow down. This is a somewhat different principle and is much more direct than bracing. You are comparing apples to oranges.

[flerc]

How do you know what they are?

Because without accomplishing those conditions, I cannot imagine how a brace may works

[Pooka1]

Because without accomplishing those conditions, I cannot imagine how a brace may works

"The Argument from Personal Incredulity" is not a valid argument, Fer.

[flerc]

Not is valid also for you. You are incredulous about braces may work and some conditions are necessary for that. Certainly you say are useless. I only am incredulous you may prove it. But I heard you.
And certainly the conditions I'm refering are not really obvious also for you?

[Pooka1]

Not is valid also for you. You are incredulous about braces may work and some conditions are necessary for that. Certainly you say are useless. I only am incredulous you may prove it. But I heard you.

I am incredulous that leprechauns might exist.

And certainly the conditions I'm refering are not really obvious also for you?

Some people think prayer is a necessary condition. The point is there is no limit to the imagination of lay people.

[flerc]

I am incredulous that leprechauns might exist.

I'm incredulous that japanese men may not reach 2 meters heigh.

The point is there is no limit to the imagination of lay people.

Yes, some of them imagine to be so important and have a knowledge so great that may do categorical assertions without prove in a public forum .

[Pooka1]

Fer, this is how rational people function...

The person claiming something is true has to show the evidence it is true.

The other people who don't have evidence are allowed to sit back and be skeptical and doubt UNTIL the evidence is given. They don't have to disprove the claim although in the case of many alternative treatments, which are based on clear nonsense, we can disprove some of them from first principles.

Just like with claims of the supernatural. Until someone shows some evidence of the supernatural, rational people get to sit back and doubt the supernatural. That is the only intellectually honest position.

[flerc]

Fer, this is how rational people function...

Fortunately we have here someone so clever and wise.

The person claiming something is true has to show the evidence it is true.

Certainly I would say about doing categorical assertions, but anyway, say that to whom said this 'There is no evidence any conservative treatment has prevented any surgery'

The other people who don't have evidence are allowed to sit back and be skeptical and doubt UNTIL the evidence is given. They don't have to disprove the claim

Yes, exactly what I'm doing.

[flerc]

Flerc,

1. The Milwaukee brace has been largely abandoned by the medical community because it is considered to be inhumane. Would you like your daughter or son to wear this miserable contraption for years at a time?

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...QEwAw&dur=3498

As I know is used up today. Anyway you should to understand what I said, that certainly is different to promote the use of Milwaukee.

I sure as hell wouldn't put it on my child for even one second.

Also if you were sure that in this way she/he may avoid fusion? Do you want I copy a photo of the back during surgery? Again, I don't promoting his use.. I don't know if other braces are better and no so hard.

2. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Surely you are right.. as you talk it seems you have a great knowledge about these issues and I cannot say the same. if Vbs sellers as I remember refers to it as an internal brace, you should to explain it to them, otherwise people as you with a great knowledge, may think 'this people are comparing apples to oranges'
Certainly this comparing between braces and Vbs was the first lesson I had here about it.

Then there are braces that are used on the inside of the body (internally) to hold the spine in place such as growth rods (like MAGEC) and stables (VBS) and titanium ribs (VEPTR).

VBS works by putting direct pressure on the growth plates which mechanically/physically causes the overgrowth of the affected side to slow down. This is a somewhat different principle and is much more direct than bracing.

As I know Vbs as a brace used under the right conditions, both hold the spine with a reduction of the curve. But if I’m comparing apples to oranges, Vbs is not following a somewhat different principle and much more direct than bracing as you said, it should to be a totally different principle.
Correct me please but I believe the direct pressure on the growth plates has to do with doing more symmetryc the asymmetric vertebral growth, governed by Wolff’s law. A brace used under the right conditions also do the same, (but as I said in not a so much direct way as Vbs) because decompress the concave side, so the pressure is more even in both sides and if it is used under the right conditions, as Vbs works all the time. So I don't see a so great difference in the principles.. yes I see a great difference in the way these principles are applied, but I believe is possible to get a brace applying it in a best way.. why not?