Scoliosis and TAMARS treatment

[gerbo]

In all fairness, if structural would live closeby, I'd visit him, if only to see what he does, well, that's to say, if my daughter would agree as clearly she is getting thoroughly fed up with all these different people she is and has been seeing, staring at her back and ofcourse, this is another reason we cannot try everything as it involves young people at a sensitive age, with their own views and opinions and a busy life as it is.

Seeing obviously doesn't mean believing as the similarly confident chiropracter we saw in the early days had an approach which even our guinee pigs would have seen was never going to do anything, so, that did not last long....

Structural, you should know what i am doing; spinecor, torsorotation most actively whilst still in two minds about restarting some stretching.

gerbo
(trying to keep the temperature down)

[Rayknox]

Gerbo

How advanced is your daughters scoliosis, and what age is she now?
Ray

[structural75]

Gerbo,
I'm all for lowering the temperature on this one....

But keep in mind, chiropractic is very different from what I do... there is no comparison to be made there. I'm glad you were able to see through your chiros theory, whatever that was, before getting too involved. I think it's best to try and understand how something works (its premise and methodology) before attempting it or considering it for its potential use.

I think you have the right idea with torsorotations and stretching etc.... I am merely suggesting a similar but more precise and trained eye and hand. That's all. It is not far from what you're currently doing, if not extremely similar. I think if one were to deem stretching without professional guidance a safe endeavor, it would logically follow that manipulation of that same tissue with a trained practitioner would be just as safe if not more.

I'm sorry you and your daughter are getting frustrated. If I did live close by I'd be happy to see her at no cost out of fairness to some of your valid points on scientific studies. But obviously that's not possible... But I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen, I always merely suggest trying it as a compliment to whatever method is already being utilized. It's not a substantial investment... you would have a pretty good idea of it's effectiveness and methodology within say the first 1-3 hours of work. That's not going to break anyones bank account and it certainly won't be buying the practitioner a new car.

I'm all for healthy skepticism but slander I'm not, especially when folks don't know anything about what they are talking about. That seems fair to me.

Best to you and your daughter Gerbo,

structural

p.s. - Celia, I'm sorry, it has nothing to do with massage... www.theiasi.org

[Celia]

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't make false and unsubstantiated accusations about my profession without first learning a thing or two about it from reputable and reliable sources. I'm not here claiming miracles will happen....

You did claim that SI cured your scoliosis - you are now scoliosis free??? I also recall the following statement in another thread not too long ago....

The good news: If you're 21 years of age then, despite what others may say, there is a possibility that your curve can be reduced to some degree. You didn't clarify if the scoliosis was dertermined to be congenital or ideopathically derived, that would play a major part in the potential outcome. So the question you asked;


"does anybody know of anything besides surgery that actually has been proven to help reduce the curve? "


Yes. There are several methods that claim to potentially reduce the curvature, but I will speak only of the approach that I have used personally and currently practice as a professional with proven results. Structural Integration (a.k.a. - Rolfing) and certain manually based Osteopathic Physicians have had excellent success at times in this realm. It is not a black and white issue, sometimes it works dramatically well (an Advanced Rolfer, Health Practitioner & colleage of mine in Munich, Germany recently worked with a young adult patient with a 46 degree curvature. At the end of the intitial treatment her curve was measured at 18 degrees.).

[zuma]

That reply does not claim to be a miracle cure it just says to me that it will reduce the curve

[Celia]

I see we're making trivial distinctions, otherwise splitting hairs. I would imagine any kind of reduction in curvature of a mature individual through SI would pretty much be miraculous.

[structural75]

Sounds clear cut to me... I never used the word "cure" and made the distinction that it "sometimes" proves effective to varying degrees. Where's my claim of a "cure" Celia? Did you read my recent reply to Toni on my opinion of supposed "cures" for scoliosis?

Who's really trying to split hairs? And why? What is your intention here? Why are we continuing this discussion if you still can't answer any of the previous questions I asked regarding your base of knowledge and expertise to accurately judge treatment options?

You're obviously out to trash me... but frankly your opinion of me or my profession or TAMARS etc... is of very little concern to me.

I'm sorry I ever stepped in on this thread because now you're detracting from the original topic that Ray tried to bring to light.... TAMARS.

My apologies Ray and others for the distraction and negativity once again. Maybe it's time for me to accept the idea that this forum belongs to Celia and Friends and leave it at that. I can move on to more productive and positive experiences.

Take care,
structural

[Celia]

I'm sorry I ever stepped in on this thread because now you're detracting from the original topic that Ray tried to bring to light.... TAMARS.

Did I not make this very same statement back on post #51 before you got into a lengthy selling pitch for Structural Integration? I believe I have a right to voice my opinions as does every member in this forum. Is it my fault you contradict yourself at every turn ????? The mark of a true salesman, I would say

I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.

[structural75]

Celia,
You are truly delusional! Contradict myself at every turn??? With what may I ask? All of my posts are here for everyone to read... I take nothing back and stand behind my words. I believe it's you that hasn't answered a single serious question that I asked you... Why not? Nor did you address any of my points that you prompted.
Sales pitch??? What sales pitch??? I don't recall EVER giving anyone on this forum my personal info... Do you? If you're going to attack my profession (which you have zero knowledge about) then I WILL defend the ignorant comments. Be skeptical, have doubts and always keep common sense by your side... but "opinions" that are simply meant to degrade others whom you don't know or methods you're not familiar with is outright rude and inappropriate in this type of environment. Private message your friends here and bitch about it, but keep your unwarranted trash talking off the public domain.

I vaguely recall the title of this thread is TAMARS rather than STRUCTURAL INTEGRATION!!!! Gerbo, I urge you not to provide what's his name a forum to advertise his unsubstantiated methods whether or not they are "non profit" I find these claims hard to believe as well since his credibility is virtually nil with me at this point.

Funny, do you realized that YOU are the one that dragged my profession into this in post #33... That is how we got on the subject of SI, not me giving a sales pitch. Here's what you wrote to me...

Actually, my chosen method didn't cost me too much as most of it was covered by insurance! I don't know how you interpret success, but we're having pretty *darn* good luck with our chosen method, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!! Since you have brought up the clinical successes experienced by alternative practitioners that are not found in studies and we don't have the pleasure of reading, please share with us the miraculous success you've experienced in your own personal trials with scoliosis and how structural integration helped resolve your 25 degree curvature.

With all due respect, you're completely nuts!!!

[Celia]

Raynox is getting advice from his pussy cat and you're in agreement with him on the most ridiculous, absurd claims and you're calling *me* nuts????? What I'd like to know is what kind of formal training did this cat receive?????

The 15 year old female patient that I mentioned was 2.5cm taller after her first treatment and this did not regress. You give me your scientific explanation of this! This patient by the way had x-rays, MRI scans, bone scans etc and never once was she told that she had curvatures. My cat could have seen the curvature when she lay down. My cat would now tell me the curvature is now gone.

[Rayknox]

Celia

My cat is obviously more intelligent than you.
And not as rude.

[structural75]

Celia,
I believe that was sarcasm (re: the cat)... ?

Since you brought up the topic of formal training, what is your formal training Celia that qualifies you to judge the efficacy, legitimacy and appropriateness of various manual therapies? What is your training that provides you with an understanding as to what they do or how they achieve effects?

structural

p.s.- It would be nice if you could actually address the responses I've given to your attempts at belittlement and redemption. Otherwise, I don't see the point in continuing this bantering.

[gerbo]

well, without wanting to start all over again, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, with other words; studies (case descriptions, series of outcomes) providing (some) evidence that a certain type of treatment does something positive. And in the case of celia's daughter, this has clearly paid off. Her little daughter started well in the 60's and now, in a brace, is down to 1 degree. She clearly has shown to be able to judge very well what works and proven to be an excellent judge in these matters.

within the "scoliotic community" there is lots of respect for this lady and she has helped many parents to move forward.

[Rayknox]

Why can this not be a sensible forum discussion.
I stated that I was getting good results with scoliosis patients.
I quoted various cases which obviously only myself and my staff have seen.
I stated that we were trying to get a proper study done.
I stated that anyone was welcome to view treatments.
I stated that I would treat a patient free of charge to let them report back.
I stated other things such as the ability to 'see' a scoliosis. Which I find unbelievable that so called experts cannot do.
Why all the criticism. No wonder medical discoveries take so long to make it into the world.
What was I saying that gets so much abuse.
I am also the only one who has the courage to print his name and country.

[structural75]

Gerbo,

Likewise, without wanting to start all over again... . The proof of the pudding is in the eating indeed.. not the advertising or the results from a blind taste test (3 out of 10 people liked the taste, 7 didn't... so what do you offer those 7 people to eat?). In other words, you don't know until you try it. Although I have always seen your valid points on studies etc... evidence comes in more than just the form of a study. In fact most studies begin due to an experience in the clinical setting. I'm sorry those don't exist for you to read just yet. I'm not twisting your arm to try it... just making suggestions for those looking/asking for them. Just because studies don't exist yet doesn't mean there haven't been clinical successes, and neither of you are in any position to say it's impossible or never happened.

I realize she's been a great asset to people on this forum emotionally and as far as bracing experiences go, but I'm sorry Gerbo, that still doesn't give her the qualifications or right to trash talk things she doesn't understand or isn't familiar with. On the one hand you're demanding that some people back up their suggestions and offerings with scientific proof, and on the other hand you're excusing others' (and yourself) lack of 'scientific' understanding because they're your friend. Very hypocritical!

In the case of Celia's daughter... I hope things continue to go smoothly, I really do. But do keep in mind Gerbo that her 60 degree curve was serial casted at a very young age... when vertebral facets are very mobile and time hasn't yet severely deformed the vertebrae themselves. The real test is going to be the growth spurts... . Then we'll have a better idea if forcing curves back without doing anything whatsoever to address or discover the potential cause was futile or not. Remember, the cause hasn't been acknowledged, only the symptom of it. In the x-rays she posted earlier you can visibly see the torsion in the spine and pelvis, despite the fact that it is vertically straightened.... that would make me curious as a parent. And it would be a shame to look back 15 years from now and think to ones self, 'If only I had done something in addition to the bracing to attempt to discover and treat the cause instead of relying solely on force, luck and wishful thinking.... and studies'.

The only thing that bracing studies show is that sometimes the force of bracing can overpower the cause of the problem. We don't know if that's doing harm in other ways to the body or it's physiology... I haven't read or seen any studies that perform long term follow-up on the health status of individuals who were braced. Do you know of any? ...It's about perspective... what is the brace actually accomplishing and what does it not accomplish?... and what can be done to compliment it's use to try and cover all the bases as best as humanly possible?

within the "scoliotic community" there is lots of respect for this lady and she has helped many parents to move forward.

I don't question her compassion for fellow parents and children... but compassion and care still doesn't give her the right to pretend to be a knowledgeable authority on certain matters. Within my "geographic community" there is a lot of respect for me... at least I earn that respect daily by treating people fairly and kindly whether I agree with their ideas or not. I don't pretend to be a Doctor treating peoples illnesses etc....

Sorry, but I've been finding it difficult to respect someone who insists on insulting people and refuses to make an effort to understand things. How do you respect someone who accuses people of giving a sales pitch when they were in fact the one who brought the topic to the table? Blatant lies and deliberate attempts at sabotage are not respectful traits... .

Neither of you have given a response to the 'tough questions' that I've asked. ??? It's absurd to try and discredit me by lumping structural integration into the same category as raindrop therapy or massage. If you folks took the time to learn about it you might realize that. There are sensible options with studies, ones without studies and then there are options that clearly will not address the things that matter... having little or no effect on the anatomy involved with scoliosis. (chiropractics moves bones without acknowledgment of the fact that soft tissue is what positions the bones... it's no wonder at all that those who have tried it found it to be unsuccessful. If you start with a bad premise, don't be surprised when you get unsatisfactory results.) Just the same, if your searching for another solution utilizing the same premise, you'll probably get similar results. However if you change your premise, it will probably give you different results.

structural