Originally posted by flerc
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Gene Associated With Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis Identified
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Originally posted by Dingo View PostTo keep this from becoming confusing.
My original question.
If you know of any genetic disease that deforms 3% of children's bones I'd like to read about it.
If scientists knew that idiopathic Scoliosis was caused by heredity it wouldn't be called 'idiopathic" scoliosis. Idiopathic means of unknown cause.Be happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by flerc View PostYou talk as if your only preoccupation would be the researcher’s honor. Good for you, but try to show some kind of respect for people with a serious problem and trying to solve it as they can. .
People affected by scoliosis need respect and concern.
Wacky ideas held by these people need to be criticized for being wacky because they help nobody. Yes believing a falsehood is a kind of safety blanket for the people who hold the wacky idea but they should keep it to themselves and not post it on a public forum and especially not in a "research" section! There is nobody here doing research on scoliosis etiology. This section is useless at best.
There are people experimenting with conservative treatments and some have carefully documented what they are doing to their great credit.
But again, nobody should be respecting bad ideas.
The facts REQUIRE biologists and geologists to disrespect claims of young earth creationists.
The facts REQUIRE astronomers to disrespect claims of astrologers.
The facts REQUIRE chemists to disrespect the claims of alchemists.
Now lay people trotting out hypotheses about scoliosis etiology don't require disrespect from researchers in this field only because the researchers never hear about them and never have to deal with them. But any researcher would make very short work of all the lay claims fueled by 2 minutes searches on google in this sandbox.Last edited by Pooka1; 05-16-2013, 05:14 PM.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostLike I mentioned before, I believe that the term "idiopathic" will eventually be done away with and each case will be classified into the category of which it's original etiology came from. Not every case of scoliosis is idiopathic. We know that already. Right now it's called idiopathic for those for whom they haven't discovered the underlying cause.
This is yet another example of how lay people and researchers are not using words in the same way. Even if something is known to be hereditary as is idiopathic scoliosis, if they don't know the exact biochemical pathways involved then it is "idiopathic." Only lay people think "hereditary" rules out "idiopathic." That's my understanding of this issue but I am not a biologist.
The other big misunderstanding is how researchers and lay folks are using the word "environmental" as if they are two ships passing in the night. If lay folks want to try to play this game, they have to learn how to use the terminology correctly.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostThe study that Dingo posted probably tested Caucasian and Asian populations (limited study).
I don't know about the Texas study.
The Scoliscore study group was not limited to people living in Utah. I was in that study and I've never lived in Utah. I am of Mormon ancestry, but the developers of that study had no way of knowing that.
I am more interested in the possibility that the genes discovered here in the United States weren't traceable to other races when they tried to replicate the study. Perhaps that makes the genes not universal to scoliosis and maybe they identified something unique to a specific race. Maybe the US researchers just haven't replicated the study with Asian races at this point to see if it affects them also. Who knows.
The Utah researchers specifically wanted Mormons to use in their study due to their genealogical records so they could trace back the family tree. Maybe that's how you were included in their study.
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Originally posted by hduggerI'd suggest that most standard scoliosis treatments - bracing, fusion, VBS - are examples of medical people working as lay people in engineering . The thing that made VBS go from failure to success was finding a metal with the correct properties - something which I suspect is not mostly taught in medical school.
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Originally posted by Dingo View PostUpdated question for Rohrer01 or anybody else who cares to answer
If you know of a genetic disease that deforms the bones of 3% of ANY species of mammal on earth I'd like to read about it.
If you asked the man on the street my assumption is that most people believe that genetic diseases are common in children when in fact they are exceptionally rare.
Any genetic disease more common than about 1 in 10,000 children is considered very common by genetic disease standards.
There are variations of "normal" in any genome. Some people might think that very large or small ears or nose, etc. is a "deformity". After all, a narrow nose can interfere with breathing. A spine has to be curved to at least 10* to be considered scoliosis. There are many people that have functional scoliosis, meaning no symptoms other than the curvature, and lead very normal lives. It survives because people grow up to reproduce.
Hdugger has a very good point about malocclusions and poor eyesight. Saying that malocclusions come from eating a softer diet may hold "some" credibility. My daughter's malocclusion took the exact form of my mother and my sister. She also wore appliances to make her jaws bigger to allow room for her permanent teeth, something not invented when my mother and sister were kids. My oldest son, on the other hand, has a perfect set of 32 well formed and straight teeth. He ate the same diet growing up as my daughter. Oops, what happened to that theory?
As far as eyesight: Eyeglasses were invented during a time when people, for the most part, still worked outside. You say nothing of hyperopia or astigmatism. How does anyone know if "primitive" people had good or poor eyesight? No one was there to give them a test. I suppose they could speculate by the shape of the eye socket, but that doesn't guarantee accuracy by any means. My youngest kids have a combination of their father's myopia and my astigmatism. My oldest son has better than perfect eyesight like his father. Hmmmm?Be happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by flerc View PostNot, what only it prove is that Engineers are advocated to solve problems using Physics facts and Medicine only have technicians (physicians) and researchers. If we would have not Engineers, we would continue riding horses.. as is it seems to be happening with medicine.. I may say that not only with scoliosis.Be happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by hduggerJust to quote correctly, here's is Dingo's position:
"Nearly all disease appears to follow that common pattern.
Genetic susceptibility + environmental damage = disease.
In addition once a disease takes hold genes can make symptoms less severe or more severe."
So, is anyone arguing something other than that? Like, does someone think scoliosis is 100% genetic and 0% environment? Sometimes I think we're so caught up in the argument that it isn't obvious that everyone is in agreementBe happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by Dingo View PostEven simpler still...
The purpose of our DNA is to facilitate reproduction. A chicken is an egg's way of making another egg.
If something interferes with reproduction it almost always comes from the environment, not heredity.
Would Scoliosis reduce the rate of reproduction or interfere with child rearing even if only slightly? Yes. Therefor I can bet with 99% accuracy that it's triggered by something in the environment.
The world is exactly that simple.
This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about in my previous post.
Scoliosis, in general does not reduce the rate of reproduction enough to significantly eliminate it's genetic component. Just because someone with scoliosis doesn't have children doesn't mean that they can't. By the way, where do you come up with that hypothesis? No one is arguing an environmental trigger. I have my doubts about the "germ" theory, though.
I'm glad you think that the world is that simple. =)Be happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by hduggerI knew you weren't a camp'er You don't have the "it must work this way or I'll just die" vibe.
I'm completely dumbfounded by anyone who is wildly pro surgery or bracing. I totally get the necessity thing, but I don't see how anyone can love the idea of long-term bracing or spinal fusions - they both have to be near the bottom of "medical treatments I just love." You do them, if you must, and then you spend the rest of your life trying to figure out how to keep anyone else from having to do them. That doesn't mean that they don't have a place in the realm of medical treatments, i just don't see how one can get really enthusiastic about them.
I more easily understand the enthusiasm about exercise treatments, since they seem generally benign, broadly helpful, and not downright arcane in the way that standard scoliosis treatment seems. But I also suspect that it may be a pretty small subset for whom they'll turn out to be hugely effective.
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Originally posted by Dingo View PostYes.
If a disease is rare, group specific or hits primarily old people it's possible that it's caused by heredity.
If a disease is ancient, common and widespread (especially if it hits young people) it's almost impossible for it to be caused by heredity because natural selection is the mortal enemy of disease.
You make headway with some of your reasonings and then you say stuff like this...??? That's why you get attacked in the research forum. You have offered a lot of valuable information, but we have to sift through statements like this to find it.
You just contradicted yourself, again, by discounting heredity all together. Natural selection is not a mortal enemy of anything. If natural selection is your thing, then we should be getting better, not worse. Remember the malocclusion and eyesight posts? You can't have it both ways.
Bold mine.Be happy!
We don't know what tomorrow brings,
but we are alive today!
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Originally posted by flerc View PostIf those are the kind of comments you like to do, continue posting rarely or better stop for ever.. nobody will miss your posts here.
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Originally posted by hduggerJust to quote correctly, here's is Dingo's position:
"Nearly all disease appears to follow that common pattern.
Genetic susceptibility + environmental damage = disease.
It's environmental "FACTORS" like maternal age and epigenetics. Maternal age and epigenetics are not "DAMAGE", they are "FACTORS," to those with relevant training.
Research training, knowing your subject and its terminology from more than just google, and rational, scientific thinking... more than just good ideas.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by rohrer01 View PostI beg to differ. Muscular Dystrophy is inherited and hits kids.
CDC: Muscular Dystrophy
An estimated 1 of every 5,600 to 7,700 males 5 through 24 years of age had DBMD. That is approximately equal to a prevalence of 1.3 to 1.8 per 10,000 males 5 through 24 years of age in the four states.
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