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  • Scoli genes

    The reason I'm not a scoliosis researcher is there is no funding for serious research. While I was at the NIH in gene therapy research, I made a push for more funding, but apparently at some point in the past, a group of spine surgeons went to Congress and told them there was no need for funding scoliosis research as the disease was able to be cured from surgery. After an event like that, it's difficult to recover from a funding standpoint.

    I doubt very much that the AIS gene mutations will be anything like mutations for the adult onset, but I could be wrong. There will still likely be a hormonal component however. I'll have to ponder that question for a bit.

    Twin studies offer little of value past the initial concept of a hypothesis. Remember, twins are not clones (no matter what the FBI says). They are only identical at the time of conception. There are a handful of reasons twins do not have exactly the same DNA after that point, males more so than females. But I think everyone is probably familiar with identical twins that are very very different in appearance, either from your community or from the Discovery Channel They're not clones.

    If this disease were environmental, given the enormity of the population that is affected, one would expect to see large, non-familial pockets where entire communities were affected with the same curve. You'd have epidemiologists from around the world converging on those sites to study the phenomenon. That would happen wherever the environmental factor was strongest. But the disease is pretty homogeneous throughout the population of humanity.

    I suspect that the male form of AIS may be fatal in-utero in many cases due to the high fluctuations of hormonal activity during that time. That would account for the percentage discrepancy between males and females as well as the overall greater severity of the disease in males.

    For real scoliosis treatments that are in our future, we'll have to wait on gene therapy. Someone will have to fund the gene array sequencing, probably for Miller at Hopkins. Luckily, that's getting cheaper. Don't hold out for gene therapy for our generation though. There's lots of stuff to work through on that end and many countries are being rather negligent with their technique [read: China] and making promises they can't possibly fufill, getting transfected virus into the community (yikes), and other rather dangerous things.


    As for multiple sclerosis being genetic, try reading the following article, it's pretty current:

    Mol Cell Probes. 2010 May 5. [Epub ahead of print]
    The genetics of multiple sclerosis: An update 2010.
    Hoffjan S, Akkad DA.

    It's a good read. There are over 4,000 other peer-reviewed articles I can point you towards if you're seriously interested in the genetics of that disease. There are also lots and lots of MS gene therapy clinical trials out there- since they're targeting a mutated gene with those, the genetic component is just a given.

    Have a great day everyone
    Last edited by Prfbones; 05-24-2010, 09:43 AM. Reason: stoopid spelling
    "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

    Ph.D. in Bone Biology
    Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
    First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
    CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
    Leuke wire removal 4/99.
    Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
    Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
    Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
      twinsmom

      METHOD OF DETERMINING RISK OF SCOLIOSIS

      You might find this patent interesting. It pertains to a blood test to detect Scoliosis as well as a medicine to treat it.

      This is a patent application. The problem with patents in medicine is that there's no peer-review, safety studies, or efficacy studies. You can patent anything for any reason, it's your money.

      I find their CD44 integrin and HA data fascinating since I have several publications on this protein/GAGs in relation to a leukemia, but it looks like they're just throwing rocks at a problem. They implicate both inhibition AND stimulation in the disease. That's pretty crazy.

      Once again though, bird data. It's meaningless for humans.

      I will say; however, that is you're married to this and still not believing the genetics of the disease, you'll have to give it up at this point. Everything in this patent points to a genetic component. They're studying message transcription levels of OPN. Message is from DNA. DNA = genetic. CD44 and OPN are both proteins that are encoded by genes in our DNA.

      Oh wow, here it is:
      "Any amount of a pharmaceutical and/or nutraceutical and/or dietary supplement compositions can be administered to a subject."

      Yeah, they're throwing rocks and hoping they'll hit a target and someday be able to sell the patent to a pharma company. Since there's only one article in PUBMED with a loose connection to scoliosis and osteopontin, this is a broad, but little-hope patent. Any dose for any reason. Yikes.
      "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

      Ph.D. in Bone Biology
      Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
      First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
      CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
      Leuke wire removal 4/99.
      Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
      Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
      Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
        Mamamax

        That's another great study.





        9/57 = 15.7%
        Even a skeptic like myself has to admit that level of concentration suggests a strong, genetic susceptability. And yet they found nothing.

        I hope the scientists involved in this study continue to look at SNPs or other genetic explanations but I doubt they'll find much. They probably mined the richest material first.

        Something harmful is spreading through that family, and evidently it's not genes. The CDC should pay attention to studies like this.

        SNP = single nucleotide polymorphism. A long word for DNA mutation. i.e. genetic.

        The reason they didn't find anything is because since the primary gene hasn't been located, so they don't know where to look yet (they do give a really long list of where others have looked though). The human genome is HUGE and we don't know what everything does yet. Heck, Craig Venter literally just put the first DNA sequence (his own) on the net in 2007. That's really not enough time to have analyzed every single gene for every single disease, much less take into consideration the individual contributions of the SNPs.

        There are going to be really big differences in the DNA between these individuals. Not to mention that microsatellite markers were used (bah!). This population was not large enough to find the gene, much less to try and compare the DNA between them and hope to find it by comparing the same DNA (they would have done better to take non-affected village members and subtracting out the different DNA). Not a well-crafted study IMHO as there were no outside or negative controls. Good to see the SNP issue brought up though, I hope they run with it.
        "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

        Ph.D. in Bone Biology
        Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
        First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
        CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
        Leuke wire removal 4/99.
        Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
        Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
        Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

        Comment


        • the reason they didn't find anything

          Prfbones

          The reason they didn't find anything is because since the primary gene hasn't been located, so they don't know where to look yet
          That's one hypothesis. Another is that Scoliosis, like Multiple Sclerosis and so many other diseases isn't caused by heredity. It's caused by environmental damage. Genes may or may not play a role in susceptability.

          While I was at the NIH in gene therapy research, I made a push for more funding...
          That's great to hear, you should be extremely knowledgable about genetics.

          Can you name a single, childhood disease caused by heredity that looks anything like Scoliosis?
          i.e. Common, widespread around the world, potentially fatal, etc. etc.
          Last edited by Dingo; 05-24-2010, 10:44 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Prfbones View Post
            The reason I'm not a scoliosis researcher is there is no funding for serious research. While I was at the NIH in gene therapy research, I made a push for more funding, but apparently at some point in the past, a group of spine surgeons went to Congress and told them there was no need for funding scoliosis research as the disease was able to be cured from surgery. After an event like that, it's difficult to recover from a funding standpoint.
            Remarkable! I almost can't believe that occurred!

            Twin studies offer little of value past the initial concept of a hypothesis. Remember, twins are not clones (no matter what the FBI says). They are only identical at the time of conception. There are a handful of reasons twins do not have exactly the same DNA after that point, males more so than females. But I think everyone is probably familiar with identical twins that are very very different in appearance, either from your community or from the Discovery Channel They're not clones.
            Plenty of people agree with this. I have MZ twins (proof = one chorion) wherein one is allergic to a certain drug class and the other is not. There is a growing realization that epigenetics throws a monkey wrench into the MZ/DZ twin study design.

            If this disease were environmental, given the enormity of the population that is affected, one would expect to see large, non-familial pockets where entire communities were affected with the same curve. You'd have epidemiologists from around the world converging on those sites to study the phenomenon. That would happen wherever the environmental factor was strongest. But the disease is pretty homogeneous throughout the population of humanity.
            Dingo has been advised of this numerous times to no avail. He didn't address your first post and is not likely going to address anything that upsets his folk science.

            I suspect that the male form of AIS may be fatal in-utero in many cases due to the high fluctuations of hormonal activity during that time. That would account for the percentage discrepancy between males and females as well as the overall greater severity of the disease in males.
            That's a very interesting suggestion that captures the data.

            As for multiple sclerosis being genetic, try reading the following article, it's pretty current:

            Mol Cell Probes. 2010 May 5. [Epub ahead of print]
            The genetics of multiple sclerosis: An update 2010.
            Hoffjan S, Akkad DA.

            It's a good read. There are over 4,000 other peer-reviewed articles I can point you towards if you're seriously interested in the genetics of that disease. There are also lots and lots of MS gene therapy clinical trials out there- since they're targeting a mutated gene with those, the genetic component is just a given.

            Have a great day everyone
            That is science. Dingo only deals with folk science. Nice try.
            Last edited by Pooka1; 05-24-2010, 10:48 AM.
            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

            No island of sanity.

            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
            Answer: Medicine


            "We are all African."

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
              Can you name a single, childhood disease caused by heredity that looks anything like Scoliosis? i.e. Common, widespread, potentially fatal, etc. etc.
              I posted SEVERAL. Dingo ignores it because it doesn't fit with his folk science.

              Also Dingo misses the point entirely that most people who have scolisois probably don't know it. So he mischaracterizes it as "potentially fatal" which is true in only a very few cases of the population that has it.
              Last edited by Pooka1; 05-24-2010, 10:42 AM.
              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

              No island of sanity.

              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
              Answer: Medicine


              "We are all African."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Prfbones View Post
                I find their CD44 integrin and HA data fascinating since I have several publications on this protein/GAGs in relation to a leukemia, but it looks like they're just throwing rocks at a problem. They implicate both inhibition AND stimulation in the disease. That's pretty crazy.
                CYA... cover your bases.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Prfbones View Post
                  SNP = single nucleotide polymorphism. A long word for DNA mutation. i.e. genetic.

                  The reason they didn't find anything is because since the primary gene hasn't been located, so they don't know where to look yet (they do give a really long list of where others have looked though). The human genome is HUGE and we don't know what everything does yet. Heck, Craig Venter literally just put the first DNA sequence (his own) on the net in 2007. That's really not enough time to have analyzed every single gene for every single disease, much less take into consideration the individual contributions of the SNPs.

                  There are going to be really big differences in the DNA between these individuals. Not to mention that microsatellite markers were used (bah!). This population was not large enough to find the gene, much less to try and compare the DNA between them and hope to find it by comparing the same DNA (they would have done better to take non-affected village members and subtracting out the different DNA). Not a well-crafted study IMHO as there were no outside or negative controls. Good to see the SNP issue brought up though, I hope they run with it.
                  This will sail over Dingo's head.

                  Good try though.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • Scoliosis severity

                    Prfbones

                    I suspect that the male form of AIS may be fatal in-utero in many cases due to the high fluctuations of hormonal activity during that time. That would account for the percentage discrepancy between males and females as well as the overall greater severity of the disease in males.
                    I've never heard that Scoliosis was more severe in males than in females.

                    This study from 2006 found that among Juvenile cases both males and females had roughly the same risk of curve progression.

                    Among adolescents I believe it's generally accepted that females are more likely to suffer from Scoliosis. In addition they have a greater risk of curve progression.
                    Last edited by Dingo; 05-24-2010, 11:12 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Prfbones View Post
                      I will say; however, that is you're married to this and still not believing the genetics of the disease, you'll have to give it up at this point. Everything in this patent points to a genetic component. They're studying message transcription levels of OPN. Message is from DNA. DNA = genetic. CD44 and OPN are both proteins that are encoded by genes in our DNA.
                      Dingo has a bit of a track record of inadvertently posting things that are contradictory because he doesn't understand the work even on a basic level.
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
                        Prfbones



                        That's one hypothesis. Another is that Scoliosis, like Multiple Sclerosis and so many other diseases isn't caused by heredity. It's caused by environmental damage. Genes may or may not play a role in susceptability.



                        That's great to hear, you should be extremely knowledgable about genetics.

                        Can you name a single, childhood disease caused by heredity that looks anything like Scoliosis?
                        i.e. Common, widespread around the world, potentially fatal, etc. etc.
                        ROFLMAO!!! Of course!!! That's why they test for so many genetic ailments at birth!!! It's because most of them are wide-spread and genetic. Wow.
                        "The plural of anecdote is not data" --Frank Kotsonis

                        Ph.D. in Bone Biology
                        Harrington rod and Leuke sublaminar wires 2/1986, fused T4 to T12.
                        First revision 3/1987 fused pseudoarthrosis, placed CD instrumentation from T10-T12.
                        CD instrumentation removal 10/97 following breakage.
                        Leuke wire removal 4/99.
                        Salvage surgery; Harrington removal 1/2000, fused to L2.
                        Ruptured disc, fusion extension to L4 3/2016.
                        Surgeons: David Bradford, Francois Denis, Mike Lagrone

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Prfbones View Post
                          ROFLMAO!!! Of course!!! That's why they test for so many genetic ailments at birth!!! It's because most of them are wide-spread and genetic. Wow.
                          Welcome to our world.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • Shooting down folkscience claims

                            We have seen the folkscience claim that scoliosis is too prevalent to be a genetic disease. I have countered that argument already with other reasoning but here is another stab at it.

                            Here is a list of genetic diseases that have a similar prevalence rate as scoliosis, some many-fold more prevalent than scoliosis.

                            Scoliosis: ~2 to 4 % worldwide

                            Otosclerosis: As many as 10% of Caucasians have the condition but most do not get symptoms; about 1 in 100 cases actually lose hearing from otosclerosis

                            Sickle Cell Anemia: Estimated 1 per 1,000. Hispanic Americans are affected by sickle cell disease in the US

                            Deuteranopia: About 1% of white males

                            Protanopia: About 1% of white males

                            Red-green color blindness: About 10% of males

                            Of course there are many genetic diseases that are far rarer due to their virulence. Scoliosis, where only about 1 in a 1,000 require fusion and some of these people never get fusion and still live long enough to reproduce, is obviously nowhere near as virulent as the rare genetic disorders. That accounts for the observed incidence rate of 2-4% worldwide; no need for a germ theory of scoliosis.

                            Here is a short explanation of how prevalence, incidence, etc. have specific meanings...

                            http://www.bmj.com/epidem/epid.2.html

                            I think I have been using terms wrongly at times and would need to study this if I continue these ridiculous exchanges.

                            Last, science advances by trying to disprove false claims. Folkscience "advances" by trying to prove false and, by chance alone, true claims.
                            Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                            No island of sanity.

                            Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                            Answer: Medicine


                            "We are all African."

                            Comment


                            • the point

                              Prfbones

                              ROFLMAO!!! Of course!!! That's why they test for so many genetic ailments at birth!!! It's because most of them are wide-spread and genetic. Wow.
                              You claim to have a PHD and to know a lot about genetics. Like I said before...

                              Can you name a single, childhood disease caused by heredity that looks anything like Scoliosis?
                              i.e. Common, widespread around the world, potentially fatal, etc. etc.

                              Comment


                              • progression risk

                                Prfbones

                                I suspect that the male form of AIS may be fatal in-utero in many cases due to the high fluctuations of hormonal activity during that time. That would account for the percentage discrepancy between males and females as well as the overall greater severity of the disease in males.
                                This study from 1998 found that girls have a much greater risk of progression. I believe the sample included both juveniles and adolescents.

                                Are you sure that Scoliosis is more severe in males? Do you have a link to something I can read? That's a really interesting statement from somebody who says they worked at the NIH. I've never read that before.
                                Last edited by Dingo; 05-24-2010, 11:32 AM.

                                Comment

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