Clear - 63* -> 15* in a month?

[mamamax]

What is the evidence for this?

It's in the writing about it that she has done.

[Pooka1]

It's in the writing about it that she has done.

You have her book, yes?

Do you remember what the evidence is that her curve is stiff?

Is it just her feeling?

[mamamax]

I have everything written by Martha to this point.

Martha refers to her condition as structural with vertebral rotation and rib deformities which had remained fixed and rigid for decades prior to 1992.

Feel free to write to her and validate that if you like. I'm sure she knows what she's talking about ;-)

[Pooka1]

I have everything written by Martha to this point.

Martha refers to her condition as structural with vertebral rotation and rib deformities which had remained fixed and rigid for decades prior to 1992.

Feel free to write to her and validate that if you like. I'm sure she knows what she's talking about ;-)

I'll take a surgeon's opinion, not Hawes'.

Both my daughters had "structural with vertebral rotation" but were obviously flexible given their correction degree. If "rib deformities" means rib hump as is very likely then my daughters had that also.

The fact that it remained "fixed" doesn't mean it is rigid as far as I know.

Most curves above 50* will progress over the lifetime of the patients and some large percentage of those are likely "rigid" over decades. And yet they move.

The most likely reason she saw a reduction is because her curve was flexible from all the exercise and massage over the years.

[mamamax]

I'll take a surgeon's opinion, not Hawes'.

Both my daughters had "structural with vertebral rotation" but were obviously flexible given their correction degree. If "rib deformities" means rib hump as is very likely then my daughters had that also.

The fact that it remained "fixed" doesn't mean it is rigid as far as I know.

Most curves above 50* will progress over the lifetime of the patients and some large percentage of those are likely "rigid" over decades. And yet they move.

The most likely reason she saw a reduction is because her curve was flexible from all the exercise and massage over the years.

I think you should write to Martha and ask her interpretation of structural, fixed and rigid. Or maybe Linda can call her.

Personally, based on the research she has done (i.e, the publication of Scoliosis and the Human Spine), and her professional affiliations which include surgeons, I believe she well understands the nomenclature and is not in error when describing her condition, which she states was (following exercise from age 11 to 40): structural with vertebral rotation and rib deformities which had remained fixed and rigid for decades prior to 1992.

[Pooka1]

I think you should write to Martha and ask her interpretation of structural. Or maybe Linda can call her.

Personally, based on the research she has done (i.e, the publication of Scoliosis and the Human Spine), and her professional affiliations which include surgeons, I believe she well understands the nomenclature and is not in error when describing her condition.

I think you (and possibly Hawes) are confusing/conflating "structural" and "rigid."

You can and do have structural curves, some large, that that are flexible. It's why some structural curves can be corrected to near zero and others can't be corrected below 30* or more.

I don't care how much research she has done... if a SURGEON hasn't assessed her curve flexibility/rigidity then she can't possibly know FULL STOP.

[mamamax]

I think you (and possibly Hawes) are confusing/conflating "structural" and "rigid."

You can and do have structural curves, some large, that that are flexible. It's why some structural curves can be corrected to near zero and others can't be corrected below 30* or more.

I don't care how much research she has done... if a SURGEON hasn't assessed her curve flexibility/rigidity then she can't possibly know FULL STOP.

We disagree - While I may sometimes be confused by definitions - I think Martha Hawes is well familiar with the nomenclature. Research scientists of her caliber are prone to such things.

She has many xrays documenting her progress throughout the years - and for certain I do know (from her writings) that she has never seen a chiropractor. I wonder who took the xrays and gave her medical interpretation? Someone qualified no doubt. I'll look closer as I go about my reading(s) #3.

Meanwhile .. Here's the SRS definition: Structural Curve - A segment of the spine that has fixed (nonflexible) lateral curvature. http://www.srs.org/patients/glossary.php?alpha=S

[hdugger]

I just wrote Martha to ask if she'd had bending xrays, or anything to indicate the flexibility of the curve. I'll let you know if I hear back.

One thing that I do note, anecdotally from discussions on the board, is people saying they've increased the flexibility of their curve through exercise. I don't have a specific post to point at, though. I just recall people talking about it.

I also don't know if the flexibility referred to by orthopedic surgeons which is measured by bending xrays is the same thing as the bony part of the curve that the SEAS people measure by putting someone into a brace while lying down.

[mamamax]

I just wrote Martha to ask if she'd had bending xrays, or anything to indicate the flexibility of the curve. I'll let you know if I hear back.

One thing that I do note, anecdotally from discussions on the board, is people saying they've increased the flexibility of their curve through exercise. I don't have a specific post to point at, though. I just recall people talking about it.

I also don't know if the flexibility referred to by orthopedic surgeons which is measured by bending xrays is the same thing as the bony part of the curve that the SEAS people measure by putting someone into a brace while lying down.

Thanks! Look forward to her reply.

And I do note the SRS definition above pretty much sums up the term "structural."

[Pooka1]

Meanwhile .. Here's the SRS definition: Structural Curve - A segment of the spine that has fixed (nonflexible) lateral curvature. http://www.srs.org/patients/glossary.php?alpha=S

This definition is obviously incomplete. Here's why:

1. My one kid counterbent her STRUCTURAL cure in the Charleston. Therefore her STRUCTURAL curve was flexible.

2. Both girls counterbent their STRUCTURAL curves just prior to surgery to identify the last instrumented vertebrae. Something obviously changes upon bending or else they wouldn't need bending radiographs for this purpose and if something changed in the STRUCTURAL curve then it flexed.

[mamamax]

This definition is obviously incomplete. Here's why:

1. My one kid counterbent her STRUCTURAL cure in the Charleston. Therefore her STRUCTURAL curve was flexible.

2. Both girls counterbent their STRUCTURAL curves just prior to surgery to identify the last instrumented vertebrae. Something obviously changes upon bending or else they wouldn't need bending radiographs for this purpose and if something changed in the STRUCTURAL curve then it flexed.

ok then .. maybe we should write SRS and ask them to "complete" their published definition. They seem to make it pretty clear that a structural curve is non-flexible. How can (according to the SRS definition) a curve be both structural (non flexible) and flexible at the same time?? That's a little confusing.

[Pooka1]

That's a little confusing.

Bingo.


.....

[Pooka1]

By the way, Linda's comment, more than anything I could possibly say, blows that definition completely out of the water...

By the way, it is typical that flexible curves straighten significantly when the patient is face down on the operating table. The first surgery I observed was a teenager. I came in just before they were draping her back, and I noticed how small her curve appeared. I was actually concerned, thinking that the surgeon was operating on a small curve. In reality this teen had a 60-something curve. I suspect this is why we see some people who are able to reduce their curves somewhat with exercise or other alternatives. But, as I've said before, I am certain that those curves return when the treatment is discontinued.

[mamamax]

Here's a little more from SRS:

Structural curve - a measured spinal curve in the coronal plane in which the Cobb measurement fails to correct past zero on supine maximal voluntary lateral side bending x-ray

http://www.srs.org/professionals/glossary/glossary.php

[Pooka1]

Here's a little more from SRS:

Structural curve - a measured spinal curve in the coronal plane in which the Cobb measurement fails to correct past zero on supine maximal voluntary lateral side bending x-ray

http://www.srs.org/professionals/glossary/glossary.php

See how this is seemingly completely at odds with the first definition you posted?