Reason for back pain, ischias, foot pain, ankle pain, stiff back,...

[expatient]

Sacroiliac joint subluxation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEUPFNBXTNE

[tonibunny]

You have posted about this quite a few times on these forums, and you give the impression that people shouldn't need bracing or surgery because all cases of idiopathic scoliosis are due to SI Joint dysfunctions. I feel that it is wrong for you to tell people this.

Your video on SI Joint problems is interesting, and it may actually be the cause of some cases of idiopathic scoliosis, but it is NOT responsible for all cases.

I myself was diagnosed with infantile idiopathic scoliosis at the age of 6 months; I had two large curves (62 and 40 degrees) that had developed before I even sat up for the first time. These cannot in any way be said to be due to SI Joint problems!

[structural75]

Expatient,

I have to echo tonibunny's sentiment here... you are providing very misleading and inaccurate information to people on these forums. I see people with dysfunctional SI joint problems all of the time and can tell you that it often has very little to do with the SI joint itself.... it is usually a secondary dysfunction to various other primary conditions.

It is definitely not the cause of most cases of scoliosis. Albeit, you will often find dysfunctional SI joint(s) in those with scoliosis but it is a biomechanical adaptation/consequence of abnormal or compromised spinal and pelvic mechanics, not the cause.

As Tonibunny pointed out, her scoliosis developed during infancy during which time the SI joints are flat and very mobile.

Sacroiliac joint subluxation:

The term 'subluxation' is also highly questionable.. there is a big debate as to whether you can actually see them on an x-ray... one chiropractor and researcher claims that he's NEVER seen a subluxation on an x-ray. It's a subjective term... it could mean a variety of things relating to the mechanics of the joint... very misleading to the public. Asking 'Where does your back go when it goes out?' is like asking 'where does your lap go when you stand up?'.???

[expatient]

you are providing very misleading and inaccurate information to people on these forums.

Well that is just your opinion. Doctors gave me misleading information for over 20 years when they told my left foot was shorter and I had scoliosis and nothing can help that. Yet those problems were corrected when I was 35yrs by correcting my SIJD. All my chronic pains vere gone. My posture got better and walking became easier. So all the doctors were wrong. And there were a lot of them...

And since then I have been interviewing patients and found over 100 similar cases during a last year. They all tell the same story. And there are thousands more, I just haven't interviewed them yet...

How can it be misleading information if the source is from medical experts? One of many is well educated PT who has been 10 years in World Congress on Low Back Pain and the Pelvis.

[tonibunny]

Expatient.....it is only misleading in that you appear to claim that ALL cases of idiopathic scoliosis are caused by SI Joint dysfunctions.

Whilst some cases - including yours - may well be caused by them, it is misleading and wrong to claim that everyone's idipathic scoliosis is caused by the same problem.

[expatient]

Expatient.....it is only misleading in that you appear to claim that ALL cases of idiopathic scoliosis are caused by SI Joint dysfunctions.

No I did not say ALL! And there are other factors too, like subluxated/luxated hip joint. Do you know how many cases are not noticed from baby examiantions. More than 50%. And uncorrected hip luxation is one reason for scoliosis that starts developing since a baby starts walking with other leg shorter...

Whilst some cases - including yours - may well be caused by them, it is misleading and wrong to claim that everyone's idipathic scoliosis is caused by the same problem.

I agree. Only most of them.

[tonibunny]

Good Maybe you should explain things better in your posts, because you do seem to be arguing that hip/pelvic problems are the sole cause of "idiopathic" scoliosis.

[structural75]

Expatient,

http://dianelee.ca/
This is a Physical Therapist from Canada, member and editor for the Congress for Low Back Pain and expert in the field of pelvic and spinal dysfunction and rehabilitation. She's written several up-to-date books on Pelvic and SI joint dysfunction and conducted research and studies on the matter. You can find many insightful articles on her website.

While I agree that SIJD can be a significant source of problems for people, it's also important to recognize that pain, discomfort, improper mechanics, "subluxations, etc. of the SI joint are reflections of a larger problem/imbalance in the body. Pelvic torsions, spinal curvatures caused by 'other' factors, rotations and/or foot, knee or hip problems will potentially all give rise to SI joint dysfunctions. The SI joint should never be examined and treated in isolation from the rest of these factors because its integrity and function is reliant on all the rest. It happens to be a vulnerable joint(s) because it is the only place where the weight of the entire upper body rests on the lower... those two joints bear the weight of the whole spine, ribcage, head and arms. Tremendous forces are at play here and if there is a discrepancy in function or balance elsewhere in the body these joints will become fixated or hypermobile to accomodate that.

In scoliotic spines it is not uncommon or unreasonable to find SIJD for this reason. Manipulation of the joint often brings relief to people and often is temporary and requires constant attention.

Static imaging is not suffice to analyze SI joint function or dysfunction. Someone can have a perfectly healthy and functional SI joint with pelvic asymmetries or torsions. Movement determines function (or a lack thereof), not static pictures. Although they can provide useful information and give reason for further inquiry, they don't define the condition. Also, what if you were looking at another aspect to those pictures.. couldn't you also suggest that the pelvic asymmetries you're seeing are the result of problems with the pelvic floor, adductor tensional imbalance, pubic symphasis dysfunction, etc.? It all depends on what 'part' you want to isolate.

Do you know how many cases are not noticed from baby examiantions. More than 50%. And uncorrected hip luxation is one reason for scoliosis that starts developing since a baby starts walking with other leg shorter...

Also, some infants have neurologic deficits that inhibit the action of the hip flexors which will also result in SIJD.. but SIJD is not the cause of it. There are many factors that pre-exist the rise of SIJD... it is predominantly a consequence rather than the overwhelming cause. And although it may cause scoliosis in some, or may influence and perpetuate its progression in others, it is not the predominant cause if you look critically, comprehensively and deductively at the situation.

How can it be misleading information if the source is from medical experts? One of many is well educated PT who has been 10 years in World Congress on Low Back Pain and the Pelvis.

I certainly don't refute your experience with this and I think it provides very useful insight into misdiagnosed cases. For you, this was the answer, and many more I'm sure will/have benefited from these observations and interventions.

But a word on how it can be misleading if information comes from a "medical expert"... not too long ago it was a common belief that the SI joints were fused and did not move. This was common and accepted belief throughout most of the medical community... now we know this is false and has been proven through various tests. So in the realm of SIJD and the body in general, be wary of anyone who claims to have the definitive answers to matters like this. We're all still learning, as advanced as we've become, and you can be certain that we'll continue to be confused... just on a higher level. I don't disagree with what you're offering up, just the fact that it is the predominant cause of ideopathic scoliosis.

[expatient]

Good Maybe you should explain things better in your posts, because you do seem to be arguing that hip/pelvic problems are the sole cause of "idiopathic" scoliosis.

Yes that's my fault. They are a cause only perhaps in 99%. And 99 times out of 100 they are misdiagnosed because doctors don't believe they can exist.

[structural75]

I believe they exist, but not 99% of the time.??? I wouldn't choose to go to a doctor to find the 'cause' of an ideopathic scoliosis (unless it would require lab testing for possible genetic influences)... Doctors are mostly concerned with treating the end result of disease and dysfunction... basically what they can see and quantify... prevention and causal approaches are low on the list of likely outcomes for treatment for them because it is extremely difficult and subjective to determine. And doctors don't like subjectivity.. it lays outside the scope of 'pure' science.

I find it interesting that if the numbers you present are correct... ? ...then wouldn't all of those people with IS who are being treated by chiropractors adjusting their SI joints be 'cured' of their scoliosis by now? Why, despite constant manipulation of the SI joint in these people is their curve not being corrected or slowed down? SI joint manipulation is one of the most common HVLA adjustments given to patients see a chiropractor.

[tonibunny]

It sounds to me, from what Structural said, that SI joint problems etc can themselves be caused by scoliosis. So, isn't it all a bit chicken-and-egg?

[structural75]

Tonibunny,

Precisely... many people with congenital and structural forms of scoliosis develop SI joint dysfunctions... with curvatures of the spine as such, it's somewhat inevitable... and some experience pain locally to the joint and some don't.
With these types of scoliosis it is obviously not a result of SIJD... so it goes to show that SIJD can be present but not necessarily the primary cause in ANY form of scoliosis, including ideopathic.

You said it best tonibunny... which came first, the chicken or the egg?

[expatient]

Precisely... many people with congenital and structural forms of scoliosis develop SI joint dysfunctions...

So why can't it be the other way around? What if sijd causes all that? And up there you said many sijd patients have pelvic torsion. Ofcourse they do! SIJD is causing it. Obviously you don't understand what sijd really is. You think it is stiffnes and pain? No it is not. It is that sij has moved and ilium/innominate has rotated and created pelvis torsion. You didn't even bother to watch the video in my first message...

SIJD is not pain or stiffnes. Pain and stiffnes are the symptoms of sijd and usually they are on the side of the healthy sij!

Start learning here:
http://www.healing.org/only-3.html

It is not logical that something comes from nothing like scoliosis. There is always a cause to it. If you don't know it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And the cause for sijd is taruma: fall, hit to buttock, accident, slipping, etc. Most people get it as a child and the pain comes after years of walking with non-symmtrical functioning pelvis. It stresses spine and deep muscles. Scoliosis is just a compensation curve for that twisted foundation of a spine so that body balance will hold.

[structural75]

Obviously you don't understand what sijd really is. You think it is stiffnes and pain?

??? ...when did I define SIJD as being pain and stiffness??? I said that pain is often a symptom of SIJD, either locally or distally.

So why can't it be the other way around? What if sijd causes all that? And up there you said many sijd patients have pelvic torsion. Ofcourse they do!

Because it is well documented and common knowledge that structural scoliosis develops for a variety of reasons such as: ribs fused together during embryologic development, hemivertabrae (formation of half a vertabrae on one side of the spine), malformation of articular processes, etc... none of these have anything to do with the si joint initially. Invariably the scoliotic curve they create will more than likely lead to SIJD of some kind down the road, but rib fusions that limit one side of the spine from growing symmetrically with the other is not a result of SIJD... that's why.

On torsion... a true torsion is more rare than most think. There is usually an upslip, downslip, inflare or outflare... and you can have SIJD without a true torsion... in other words, with one of the aforementioned situations present and no torsion. In fact, the chiropractor that wrote the article you linked me to describes this quite plainly... the innominate slips UP or DOWN.. that is not the same as a torsion or anterior/posterior rotation and they can occur independantly from one another.

It is not logical that something comes from nothing like scoliosis. There is always a cause to it. If you don't know it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I totally agree with you, things happen for a reason, whether known or unknown to our feeble intellects. But what I really can't agree with and let slide is this notion that SIJD is the cause 99% of the time.??? It's just as irrational to say that ideopathic scoliosis is caused by one thing. I think there are many causes for ideopathic scoliosis. We tend to treat this condition like a disease, as if it is the same thing for each person... scoliosis is a term used to describe a lateral deviation of the spine from its central axis. There are numerous factors that can cause this to happen.

I took the time to read the link you provided, and I find it a bit oversimplified. It's a typical description/premise for dysfunction as a lot of chiropractors would give. Everything revolves around the joint or the bones themselves, but there's never any mention of HOW the bones have moved or fixated into these dysfunctional positions or what is keeping them there. The sacroiliac joint in and of itself cannot create any movement whatsoever. It is the movement of the innominates themselves and the sacrum/spine that create movement at/within that joint. So if there is an upslip or a downslip it is imperative to look beyond the si joint and address the soft-tissue imbalances that are positioning the pelvis in this manner. That is exactly why "adjustments" have to be done repeatedly and the chiropractor you're getting this info from insists that people don't twist or move in certain ways while undergoing treatments... as they might "subluxate" the joint again. How about addressing the tissues responsible for the pelvic torsion, upslip, etc... ? Because the joint surfaces themselves are not moving the pelvis/sacrum.

Just to be clear here, the si joints only have about 4 -5 degrees rotational capacity at best and only a few milimeters if that in translation. (Remember, half of this joint is fibrous meaning that it doesn't slide.

We also utilize a method of muscle goading and relaxation. In this treatment, a lubricant, usually olive oil, is rubbed into the patient's lower spine, and the large muscle groups contiguous with the pelvis are then deeply massaged by the practitioner.

You mean massage therapy? That's one of the brilliant components to this solution for SIJD and scoliosis????

And the cause for sijd is taruma: fall, hit to buttock, accident, slipping, etc. Most people get it as a child

Not always.. and how does a fetus inccur trauma to its si joints in the womb, as you're suggesting in the cases of congenital/structural forms?

[structural75]

expatient,

I'm not in complete disagreement with you that healthy si joint function and pelvic stability is important and may be contributing in some manner. But the all or nothing stance excludes so many other potential legitimate factors/causes... many of which take precedence over the si joints (organ development, injury, infection or trauma, neurovascular, etc. - anything the body may be curving around to accommodate, protect or compensate for.).

Why wouldn't sijd cause scoliosis in everyone who has it... according to the article you posted, it's very common?