"Driving people away" - who, why, and does it matter?

[flerc]

It would be better if you answer first this

Someone asked you to do this?

Maybe I may understand something I'm not knowing and my emotions against you may flows in some different way.. who knows?

[flerc]

I haven't looked at that Spinecor thread today.

There's nothing to see anymore in that thread. Surely Jinseeker thought something as My god, I must to leave this forum before I may become so insane as all these people here.

[rohrer01]

It seems I only knew about your son that had scoliosis. You need to know how is her curve now. If certainly scoliosis is the problem (not the effect of other problem as I used to said you that I thought it was what was happening with you), yes, you may understand what I may feel here and why I'm involved in this insane discussions. What the hell I'm doing here talking in English about Pooka1? But if I became to talk about non surgical issues, as you should to be doing and I did yesterday, I finish talking about her. Is what she wants, how you don't see that? I really don't understand.

I don't get personal on here, or at least I try not to. I've been rubbed the wrong way by many people on here. I've been attacked by many people on here. That's what happens on an international public forum.

I mostly READ the conservative stuff in hopes of finding something useful. I usually don't get involved in those discussions because I have nothing to offer. My daughter won't even get a proper x-ray to get her curves measured. I can't MAKE her do something. I can't MAKE her try a certain treatment for her son. I was following and discussing in TAMZTOMS thread for quite awhile. I'm not seeing anything new here, but I keep looking and hoping.

I get involved in scientific threads because I'm a scientist. I don't work as one, but am trained. It interests me and I often do have something to add. That's why I choose those parts of the forum to be active in.

[rohrer01]

It would be better if you answer first this


Maybe I may understand something I'm not knowing and my emotions against you may flows in some different way.. who knows?

Flerc,
Who are you addressing here? You quoted yourself. Is it me?

[Pooka1]

No, you don't need to repost the link.

Look what I found in the previous thread that Jinseeker starter earlier this year. Note what I quoted and what is highlighted.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...408#post148408

Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

[flerc]

Flerc,
Who are you addressing here? You quoted yourself. Is it me?

If you click the View Post buttom, you'll see I was asking this to Pooka1. Certainly if she would be forced in some way to convince people that only surgery works, I might not see her as a bad/insane person.

[mariaf]

My daughter won't even get a proper x-ray to get her curves measured. I can't MAKE her do something. I can't MAKE her try a certain treatment for her son.

This has nothing to do with scoliosis, Rohrer, but I just wanted you to know that I can totally relate to your statement above. In some ways, it is much easier when they are young and you can lead them by the hand :-)

[flerc]

Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

You don't need it because it cannot change your behaviour. You are here to defame non surgical option so has not any sense to talk about responsability in your case. Nothing may be more obvious in this forum of course.

[hdugger]

Obviously I don't need your advise on anything associated with how to post responsibly.

Nor do I imagine you would take my advice.

Again, back to *my* point. In *our* discussion (the case I was talking about) you misquoted Boachie and did not include the link, and you used the misquote to correct my statement that fusion was no guarantee that one would not have future problems. So, you used a misquote of Boachie to correct a statement of mine which was in agreement with Boachie. And then, again, when I protested, you became unpleasant.

In responding to the this statement of mine (about what you'd done in my case) you told me how you usually use the quote (to correct people who say that fusions will always cause lumbar problems). I replied that you were not correcting such an error *in the case I was talking about* To which you now respond with your correct use of the quote. Which, again, is entirely irrelevant.

I have not claimed that you are *always* wrong - that would be hyperbole. What I said is that you are *often* wrong, and that you often, emphatically and insultingly, defend that wrong position.

And, yes, I would like you to correct that. Not because it's my advice, but because you might consider, on your own, that it was the right thing to do.

[hdugger]

Actually, briefly, back to the thread you cited - in the earlier discussion with Jinseeker.

You quote your doctor - "one stop shopping"

Then you (correctly and fully) quote Boachie (who, in contrast to your doctor, only says that these higher fusions *can* be OK for life, provided thus and such. That is, he is almost saying the opposite - one kind of fusion is *guaranteed to cause problems* but these higher fusions might not.)

But then, just a few posts later, you're saying that your doctor AND Boachie BOTH say that it's one stop shopping - " Fusion for other curves including high T curves, TL and L curves are not considered definitive in the same way that Boachie and our surgeon consider fusions that stay above L1 to be definitive and one-stop shopping for surgery."

Again, the issue is that Boachie is a very respected and well-known scoliosis surgeon, and your misquote of him might well make someone considering surgery think that Boachie himself is offering some kind of guarantee.

Would it be possible for you to clean up that misquote, where you find it?

[flerc]

She should not be allowed also to post about surgeries issues.
What a good forum this will be without Pooka1 here.. at least it would have a good chance to not be what it is.

[flerc]

If asking for evidence for claims drives people away then I don't see the problem.

If they have evidence then they will post it. They will WANT to post it. It won't be like pulling teeth. People being driven away is an imaginary problem in terms of mattering to patients and parents. No evidence of treatment efficacy is lost because the people going away seem to be doing so to avoid being asked for evidence. They may feel driven away if they don't want to be asked for evidence.

Again, I don't see the problem. People are free to discuss what they are doing. If they are trying something that has no known evidence of efficacy then they should be told that. As soon as they make claims of efficacy, the requests for evidence should start rolling in. Conservative and alternative methods aspire to be a science. They should want to prove their efficacy instead of it being pulling teeth. People objecting to this are not doing science. Martha Hawes obviously would never object to people asking to see her radiographs to back up her claims. And she certainly would never think to publish without radiographs. You could have invented the most effective PT treatment in the world but if you don't have radiographs proving it, people have to take the claim on faith. Maybe the inventors are satisfied with just helping people who happen to hear about the method and take a leap of faith when they could be helping many, many more people if they publish. Maybe just picking off select people to help is okay rather than trying to help more people.

They can come here to let people know and to recruit but once the claims of efficacy are made, then evidence is required.

Nobody should be driven away for stating a new treatment, admitting there is no evidence of efficacy yet, and offering to help people learn the method to see if it is effective. Nobody should be driven away for repeating what an alternative treatment purveyor told them about curve regression. That is not happening here. What is happening here is pressure to pony up evidence of efficacy claims that drive people away.

Losing people who don't agree evidence is required for claims is an imaginary problem. People may be leaving but that is no loss to the community. Science is the only game in town and will win because it works.

Of course this is absolutely ON TOPIC, so it shouldn’t be deleted! Also I’m not attacking anybody, only talking about facts, so I shouldn’t be banned. Of course this not guarantees it will not happen, but certainly I’m not sure if it has any sense for me to remains in a forum like this. It hadn’t any sense for many other people, great people, smart people, wise people, why it should to have sense for me?

As I said I only talk about facts, with too much evidence here.
Of course people are being driven away here since years ago and only in a miniscule percentage (if really there was some case) because they don’t agree that evidence is required when claims are done. The majority of the dozens, hundreds or thousands of the rest of cases leaving this forum was because people don’t want to be attacked and the minimal set of people not having problem with that kind of attacks, don’t want to waste the time, without having the chance to obtain what they wants to obtain here.

And how might they obtain what they want if all people being attacked leave the forum? With whom can I talk here about non surgical treatments? If a new member arises saying something, immediately the thread is hijacked making absolutely impossible for anyone to share information/experiences/analyze some specific issues/methods/principles/articles/ideas…….. And the way to hijack is always the same, saying the same, sometimes in different ways: ‘there is not evidence’.

But since when someone trying to stop what you are doing, showing the lack of sense of saying that and the damage you are making to many people really, is threatened to be banned as I was, the 'merit' of being driving people away is not yours, it belongs to the moderator!

[Pooka1]

Of course people are being driven away here since years ago and only in a miniscule percentage (if really there was some case) because they don’t agree that evidence is required when claims are done.

COMPLETELY disagree. It is the VAST PERCENTAGE that resent being asked for evidence or having to think in terms of evidence at all.

I don't see the problem of losing people like this. It's like losing creationists for a biology forum. Good riddance!

[flerc]

The vast precentaje? None case should to be fired in a dishonest way!
But anyway, do you remember some case fulfilling what you are saying? I not
Instead I may name a lot of people having nothing to do with what you are saying.
But we may talk about one. You may consider I was fired from this forum because the reasons I gave before and you cannot say I fulfill what you are saying of course.

[flerc]

Certainly is you who fulfill what you say and you never will be driven away, because the reasons I gave in the last of what I said.


What do you believe? Do you think I'm baiting you? I don't want to be banned just now.