"Driving people away" - who, why, and does it matter?

[Pooka1]

Boachie has not stated that fusion for thoracic fusions is "one stop shopping".

He has stated it can be. I use the quote to counter people who claim fusion can't be.

[hdugger]

Yes I believe you that you think I am making counterfactual statements. .

No, I believe that you believe what you say. But that belief does not make what you say true.

Yes, I know you posted the whole Boachie quote - I found it through your old posts. My quarrel was not with the text of his statement - I had no quarrel with what he'd said.

As in all of these cases, the issue I had was with the emphatic-and-violently-defended conclusion that you'd drawn from that article and then just repeated all over the forum.

You stated, as fact, that Boachie had made some simple declarative statement - something like "thoracic surgery is one-stop shopping" and, when I said that that sounds over-confident, for a surgeon, given the short history of the current hardware - you began insulting and belitteling me. Did I think that doctors just made this stuff up? and so on and so on. It was all kind of personal and nasty and none of it was about the facts of what Boachie said. That is, you didn't produce his *quote* to correct me - you just started being unpleasant.

So, I had to look for the quote myself - because you did not provide it. And then, when I found the actual quote, I realized that I'd been correct in stating that he hadn't made some kind of bold guarantee to surgical patients. He's made a very nuanced statement about one kind of surgery being guaranteed to cause problems in 20 to 25 years and another in which patients *can* be ok for life providing thus and such. So, my argument was never with the facts - they were with your statement about what the facts were.

Again, it's always the same thing that I'm arguing about, with you. You make very bold, categorical statements, and then you defend them as if they were some abused child. I just always feel as if I'm walking from the light into some dark storm, with things flying at me from all angles, when I try to suggest that the thing you've said is not a statement of fact.

[hdugger]

He has stated it can be. I use the quote to counter people who claim fusion can't be.

No, that is also not the case.

The statement of mine that you were addressing in one in which I said that there was *no guarantee* of what would happen to these patients down the road because we were using newer hardware.

And your response "Well Boachie seems to have some idea for fusions ending at T12 or L1... he seems to think it is one-stop shopping for surgery as does our surgeon. And they go on record."

So, no, it is simply not true that you brought that up because I said that these kids *would* have problems. I said no such thing. And you did not say that Boachie said that there was some possibility that they wouldn't have problems.

You stated what I just quoted above - it's one stop shopping, and he and your surgeon have gone on record to say so.

[flerc]

I think her reason for being here is just as noble as any of us. She's lived the nightmare of scoliosis in her children and is honestly concerned about disseminating information to help other parents who are going through the same thing, not to do an evil work as she is being accused of.

Part III

Maybe you may say that, simply because you are not suffering the consequences of what she does here. I may assure you that if you would have a daughter or someone you love with all your hearth with scoliosis and you would be thinking in non surgical options, you would want to talk about it in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world. Unfortunately is this, with someone as Pooka1 doing absolutely impossible for anyone to talk about what you would want to talk. But it seems you are lucky and you have not any problem with what she is doing here.

[Pooka1]

No, that is also not the case.

The statement of mine that you were addressing in one in which I said that there was *no guarantee* of what would happen to these patients down the road because we were using newer hardware.

And your response "Well Boachie seems to have some idea for fusions ending at T12 or L1... he seems to think it is one-stop shopping for surgery as does our surgeon. And they go on record."

So, no, it is simply not true that you brought that up because I said that these kids *would* have problems. I said no such thing. And you did not say that Boachie said that there was some possibility that they wouldn't have problems.

You stated what I just quoted above - it's one stop shopping, and he and your surgeon have gone on record to say so.

I told you why I usually bring it up.

I have posted that quote so many times that I just assume people are following along. You saw me post the quote, knew I knew the quote, and still accuse me of quote-mining. That is dissembling.

I can state it that way to YOU because I KNOW you have seen me post that quote and link multiple times. And you pretend you haven't seen it before just so you can dishonestly accuse me of quote mining.

You recently complained that I gigged you on not constantly repeating all the caveats on the magic "93%" figure.

I'm gigging you on the same here.

I will make judgement calls on whether or not I need to re-post a link for the elebenty billionth time and will not accept your opinion on whether I have posted it enough to refer to it without repeating it in its entirety.

[Pooka1]

No, that is also not the case.

"Whatever It Is I'm Against it"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7cry-4pyy8

[hdugger]

I have posted that quote so many times that I just assume people are following along. You saw me post the quote, knew I knew the quote, and still accuse me of quote-mining. That is dissembling.
.

Simply, again, how can you know all this with such utter certainty? You can't. You're stating, as fact, what I've read, what I know, and then kind of slandering me. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is a fact - even those things which could not possibly be in your possession - and you're boldly going forward into god knows where with these "facty" things.

You don't know *any* of these things as facts. Period.

What I *have* seen is you make the quote with your surgeon as the author, but I have no idea who your surgeon is and I have not, thus far, been bold enough to ask you to pony up the evidence that he said it. I do not recall, before, hearing you claim that Boachie had said that same thing, and I don't recall reading the interview with Boarchie. I can guarantee that I never read the interview before with the thought in mind that I was going to check out the veracity of your claim. So, no, in contrast to your "facts" - this is the first time I've had the chance to compare your bold statement about one-stop shopping to any actual evidence.

Also, I'm not exactly sure what "quote mining" is. I assume it's selectively pulling out a quote. But "one-stop shopping" appears exactly nowhere in the Boachie interview. So, I'm not accusing you of mining it, I'm saying that you seem to understand it incorrectly. Which, again, would not be a huge deal if you weren't so dang emphatic and unpleasant about it all.

[Pooka1]

Simply, again, how can you know all this with such utter certainty? You can't. You're stating, as fact, what I've read, what I know, and then kind of slandering me. Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Everything is a fact - even those things which could not possibly be in your possession - and you're boldly going forward into god knows where with these "facty" things.

You don't know *any* of these things as facts. Period.

What I *have* seen is you make the quote with your surgeon as the author, but I have no idea who your surgeon is and I have not, thus far, been bold enough to ask you to pony up the evidence that he said it. I do not recall, before, hearing you claim that Boachie had said that same thing, and I don't recall reading the interview with Boarchie. I can guarantee that I never read the interview before with the thought in mind that I was going to check out the veracity of your claim. So, no, in contrast to your "facts" - this is the first time I've had the chance to compare your bold statement about one-stop shopping to any actual evidence.

Also, I'm not exactly sure what "quote mining" is. I assume it's selectively pulling out a quote. But "one-stop shopping" appears exactly nowhere in the Boachie interview. So, I'm not accusing you of mining it, I'm saying that you seem to understand it incorrectly. Which, again, would not be a huge deal if you weren't so dang emphatic and unpleasant about it all.

There's too much crap here to dig out.

So on it goes.

[hdugger]

I will make judgement calls on whether or not I need to re-post a link .

No, you don't need to repost the link. You just have to 1) fairly represent what the statement is so that someone not reading the link doesn't think that a respected surgeon said something he didn't and 2) not use the (misstated) quote to correct someone whose statement is actually in complete agreement with the surgeon you are (mis)quoting and 3) once you do 1 and 2, don't start calling the other person names for (correctly) saying that your quote doesn't seem like it's right on target.

[Pooka1]

I am forced to accept that there is something about my writing style that is infinitely perplexing to hdugger. That, plus the "Whatever It Is I'm Against It" attitude make her reading my posts inevitably resulting in misunderstanding. And me inevitably concluding she is dissembling.

There will be no end to this miasma. None. Hopeless.

[rohrer01]

Part III

Maybe you may say that, simply because you are not suffering the consequences of what she does here. I may assure you that if you would have a daughter or someone you love with all your hearth with scoliosis and you would be thinking in non surgical options, you would want to talk about it in the most visited scoliosis forum of the world. Unfortunately is this, with someone as Pooka1 doing absolutely impossible for anyone to talk about what you would want to talk. But it seems you are lucky and you have not any problem with what she is doing here.

But I DO have a daughter with scoliosis! I have a son who "had" scoliosis. I have a grandson developing scoliosis! Of course I'm interested in non-surgical interventions! Especially am I interested for the grandson who isn't technically scoliotic, yet. What makes you think I'm not or haven't walked in your shoes? My daughter, like yours, is of age and refuses to listen to me. THAT is frustrating. However, if I learn something useful I would certainly like to share it. Her curve when last measured was between 15* and 20*. That was when she was 12. She'll be 24 next month and has terrible back pain at times. She also has at least one cervical rib to make matters worse.

[hdugger]

And me inevitably concluding she is dissembling..

which, like any conclusion we reach about another person's motives - particularly a person who (by all appearances) we're not all that fond of - is fraught with error. And, you know, insulting.

So, again, I am not engaging with you because of some *personal* issue (although I can reach the end of my rope at some point in these discussions). I'm engaging because I do not think it is helpful to strongly state incorrect things which might influence medical decisions - such as, a respected surgeon is offering a guarantee that people with fusions will never have any problems, or a study has concluded that nighttime bracing will very likely just lead to fusion. You can let go of any idea that I'll ever understand you and just try to be more circumspect in these areas. It's not some thing between you and I. It's between what you're stating (emphatically and repeatedly) and what is the evidence supports.

[flerc]

But I DO have a daughter with scoliosis! I have a son who "had" scoliosis. I have a grandson developing scoliosis! Of course I'm interested in non-surgical interventions! Especially am I interested for the grandson who isn't technically scoliotic, yet. What makes you think I'm not or haven't walked in your shoes? My daughter, like yours, is of age and refuses to listen to me. THAT is frustrating. However, if I learn something useful I would certainly like to share it. Her curve when last measured was between 15* and 20*. That was when she was 12. She'll be 24 next month and has terrible back pain at times. She also has at least one cervical rib to make matters worse.

It seems I only knew about your son that had scoliosis. You need to know how is her curve now. If certainly scoliosis is the problem (not the effect of other problem as I used to said you that I thought it was what was happening with you), yes, you may understand what I may feel here and why I'm involved in this insane discussions. What the hell I'm doing here talking in English about Pooka1? But if I became to talk about non surgical issues, as you should to be doing and I did yesterday, I finish talking about her. Is what she wants, how you don't see that? I really don't understand.

[Pooka1]

So, again, I don't have a *personal* issue with you

It certainly looks to me like you have a emotional problem with me.

It's not some thing between you and I.

That's what it certainly looks like to me.

Why did you delete hundreds of your own posts? Why DON'T I do that?

There's an answer in there.

No end in sight on this.

[flerc]

It certainly looks to me like you have a emotional problem with me.

It would be absolutely understandable. Of course emotions should to flows in non a very possitive way against people like you, doing what you are doing here. How do you sleep? May you say me?