I'm interpreting wrong, or you was saying that braces in adults (excepf for pain) is an absurd idea?
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Originally posted by flerc View PostI'm interpreting wrong, or you was saying that braces in adults (except for pain) is an absurd idea?
You can't get blood from a stone.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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As Dr. Kiester said, braces should to keep the back with a reduction of the curve. If not it would be like a gypsum in broken a leg without aligning the bones first. (I'm mistaken or gypsum are also used in adults broken legs?)
For instance a curve of 55º in an flexible adult may be holded in 30º. Probably holding all the back like beeing lying down. In this way there'll be a discs decompression, vertebras would suffer a more simetrical pressure, the body should to incorporate an postural image more straight improving propioception.. certainly I explained all of this in the EDF thread http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ight=edf+flerc
Why are you so sure that nothing of this would be good in adults? How do you know that the failed tissue (see my previous post #80 about the inclined plane) not allowing the vertebral aligment would not improve enough?
Surely it would not be sufficient and should to be accomplished with something more as (for instance) some especial kind of PT but I believe that probably is neccesary (and probably the same may be said in kids).
I cannot be sure about this, but give me the scientist demostration that this idea is only bullshit.
And please.. not begin again with evidence.. you have a (good) brain, use it.Last edited by flerc; 06-29-2014, 02:19 PM.
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Originally posted by flerc View PostAs Dr. Kiester said, braces should to keep the back with a reduction of the curve. If not it would be like a gypsum in broken a leg without aligning the bones first. (I'm mistaken or gypsum are also used in adults broken legs?)
For instance a curve of 55º in an flexible adult may be held in 30º. Probably holding all the back as like lying down. In this way there'll be a discs decompression, vertebras would suffer a more symmetrical pressure, the body should to incorporate a postural image more straight improving propioception. certainly I explained all of this in the EDF thread http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...ight=edf+flerc
Why are you so sure that nothing of this would be good in adults? How do you know that the failed tissue (see my previous post (#99) about the inclined plane) not allowing the vertebral alignment would not improve enough?
Surely it would not be sufficient and should to be accomplished with something more as (for instance) some especial kind of PT but I believe that probably is necessary (and probably the same may be said in kids).
I cannot be sure about this, but give me the scientist demonstration that this idea is only bullshit.
And please.. not begin again with evidence.. you have a (good) brain, use it.
If you think EDF works, has your daughter tried it? Did it work?Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostIf you think EDF works, has your daughter tried it? Did it work?
Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post??? Kiester claims bracing makes curves worse, si? Also, I don't understand your analogy with casting broken bones.
You may say that a brace is ridiculous in an adult only if it is used in a wrong way, that is, without holding tha spine straight.
Of course nobody may doubt that with growth remaining the effect would be best because guiding that remaining growth . But is not as I know a necessary condition. A way to realign the bones of a broken leg in an adult is aligning it first and mainteining aligned with a gypsum.. or I'm wrong?.. anyway is only a comparation about the concept that tissues may be realigned even in growth absence.. of course a spine is different, it's not only bone.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostYou should ask a neurosurgeon about proprioception.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostI don't see how a person can work on that laying down.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostAlso, I doubt but for an improvement in proprioception, an adult curve would improve.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostThat's the unfounded claim of chiros, not evidence-based people.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostBrain power is useless without evidence to discuss.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostYou can't do "thought experiments" like Einstein did in physics. You can think about what hypothesis to test but you still have to test it.
Of course I cannot test what I think. I would never do the experiment in the inclinated plane to be sure that the spine may remains straight (almost) by herself, but researchers may do it and investigate what EXACTLY is failing in tissues, why not?
A Body Knowledge about any issue may only be constructed over facts. How many facts are known about scoliosis? I believe that so few.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostIt seems you feel there are effective PT methods out there for adults and that you simply have to find them. If so, I suggest they would have been found by now if they were effective. That is the fundamental difference in our approaches in my opinion.
I believe that a great ammount of resources should to be destinated to understand the scoliosis problem. PT (and others) methods are suggesting that a really good solution may be achieved, not only in some cases. Note that now surgeons are beleiving that stretching a ligament may be the cure for kids. Stretching tissues is the principle followed by so many methods.
Also I always said that a rational combination of the current methods should to be so much effective (thousands of possibilities) and may be different in each case. To find the exact combination for one may be a matter of lucky.
Originally posted by Pooka1 View PostI guess I am just assuming that pretty much everything that can be tried has been tried in the world of PT for scoliosis. Weiss had ~30,000 Shcroth patients and still have nothing. There is no evidence to date that PT permanently affects structural curves. If you know of any, please post it. Given the amount of time and the number of methods out there, absence of evidence is looking like evidence of absence for PT being effective in ADULTS for anything except pain. That's my lay view of the game.
Really I was expecting for something like 'Braces in adults are useless as is deduced from the 4º biomathematics law and the..'
What you said about braces in adults is just because your same argument for all non conventional methods.. it's ever and ever the same for all of them.
You was only doing your work again.
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Originally posted by hduggerFlerc,
Noone on this forum is going to be able to answer your questions about bracing an adult scoliosis patient - there simply isn't the required expertise in this group.
The only people who would have some insight into that question that I've spoken to are the people at ISICO, and they consider using both bracing and exercise, even in mature patients. You'd learn far more discussing the question with them then you would talking to anyone here. They're very approachable and have always answered any question I've sent them.
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Originally posted by flerc View PostThanks Huddger, which is the adress, I'll write them.
Gracias.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Hi Flerc. I think I have mentioned this before, but EDF casting for older children and teens (as opposed to just infants, as today) used to be a standard treatment here in the UK during the early 1980s and before. I wore EDF casts for ten years. For some reason this treatment fell out of favour, presumably because the results weren't good enough to make the discomfort of wearing casts worth it, especially for teens.
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Hi Tonibunny, I remember what you said in these thread..
probably the cocient effectiveness/discomfort was not enough high, although it should have been more effective than other braces. And of course it was used in isolation.. even the idea of a genious could not be enough in that case.
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Originally posted by hduggerI just wrote to their main email - isico@isico.it - and communicated with Gaby Engelhorn and Alessandra Negrini (who's one of their physical therapists). They've been very direct and honest with me - telling me, for example, that they'd had little experience with high curves like my son's and felt that exercise would be unlikely to reduce his curve, although it might be able to hold it.
I strongly recommend corresponding with them - they're really the only people I'm aware of who are actively researching and publishing in this area, and they show every sign of approaching it without any preconceptions.
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Originally posted by Alistair View PostBraces in adults are a cosmetic solution only, they won't change the structural curve, ISICO. Despite posting on this thread a few times I still have to read what this Hawes is about, but frankly I can't see the point...
And of course the "stopping progression" deal may be happening but is nearly impossible to show.Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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Originally posted by Alistair View PostBraces in adults are a cosmetic solution only, they won't change the structural curve, ISICO.
Really I don't see the point (in your case) in repeating and repeating always the same in different ways without giving a logical and rational justification. Does SEAS researchers said you that the tissiues not a allowing a right vertebral aligment may not be improved? They have justified that?
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Originally posted by flerc View PostIt's enough clear to all in this thread that this is your belief, since you believe in the most absolutely impossibility of a curve reduction in an adult. I don't believe that SEAS researchers use braces only for cosmetical issues.. they told you that?
Really I don't see the point (in your case) in repeating and repeating always the same in different ways without giving a logical and rational justification. Does SEAS researchers said you that the tissiues not a allowing a right vertebral aligment may not be improved? They have justified that?
If there is a reputable medical group out there besides surgeons doing fusion surgery who claim they are permanently affecting an ADULT structural curve then I haven't seen it. Can you please post who they are?Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis
No island of sanity.
Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
Answer: Medicine
"We are all African."
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