Martha Hawes improves her scoliosis w exercise

[sjmcphee]

For the most part Pooka I do agree with you that experts in their field opinions certainly count as being more important than the opinions of others.
But what I want to say is that you treat everything as though its simply black and white, and although that line of thinking sometimes has its merits, other times it doesn't.
Your forgetting that not everything about scoliosis is known to the experts, (which means that even the experts aren't really experts - allthough they probably know more than all of us) which means there's a grey area in between.
Even colleagues at the top of their field wont necessarily agree on everything all the time.
Until everything in scoliosis in black and white and known, you should maybe give some more consideration for that grey area.

Pooka said >>

The facts are my only authority. Evidence is the only thing that matters.

We'll for me the facts are this:
For as much knowledge that the experts do know about scoliosis, there's probably just as much they don't know.
For all the billions of dollars spent treating scoliosis I'm sure theres some kind of disparity in the amount of money being spent looking at trying to find out the stuff they don't know.
And furthermore those efforts of financial investment to push research forward are in some ways biased to do what works better for companies financially rather than investigating things that need to be investigated for the benefit of patients.
If I own a billion dollar spine implant company my motives for investment in research are going to be looking towards things that create profitability to my company - first and foremost.
So maybe theres a whole heap of other scoliosis stuff than needs financial investment to be investigated adequetely.
It isn't invested in those areas because it's not profitable to do so.
Where's that money going to come from?
Evidence - Well were only going to get out what we put in.

Things with scoliosis aren't all black and white, although it might be easier if it was.
You need to keep things in the right context.
Sometimes you need to deal with each issue or situation on its own merits rather than try to find a one-size fits all approach to everything being black and white.
But sometimes too, I have to agree that certain things really are just black and white.

Thats what I think.

[Pooka1]

(which means that even the experts aren't really experts - although they probably know more than all of us)

I agree with this. There are folks here who clearly don't agree with this. That's why this forum has enough folk science to choke 5,000 elephants. It's stunning in that regard.

[TAMZTOM]

Ha ha. Yes, those bracing trials are pretty tricky things.

You call them "irrational" beliefs. They are only irrational in the sense that scientists would claim to know how everything in the universe works. And quite obviously they don't.

(Seek and ye shall find).

Hi BM
My comment was so vague--I'm not clever enough to be mischievously ambivalent--it deserves to be striken. The beliefs I called irrational were NOTHING to do with scoliosis bracing or anything medical. I was pricking those who accept works of fiction as fact, put 'faith' in people (scientists, clerics, politicians, lawyers, PTs). Neither law nor science should be the new religion.
I should I be cast into Hades, flesh torn from my body, bones burned in everlasting fire.
PS: I was an altar-boy when I was 10 yr old. :-)

[Pooka1]

Hi BM
My comment was so vague--I'm not clever enough to be mischievously ambivalent--it deserves to be striken. The beliefs I called irrational were NOTHING to do with scoliosis bracing or anything medical. I was pricking those who accept works of fiction as fact, put 'faith' in people (scientists, clerics, politicians, lawyers, PTs). Neither law nor science should be the new religion.
I should I be cast into Hades, flesh torn from my body, bones burned in everlasting fire.
PS: I was an altar-boy when I was 10 yr old. :-)

Post of the month nomination :-)

LOL.

[rohrer01]

Hi BM
My comment was so vague--I'm not clever enough to be mischievously ambivalent--it deserves to be striken. The beliefs I called irrational were NOTHING to do with scoliosis bracing or anything medical. I was pricking those who accept works of fiction as fact, put 'faith' in people (scientists, clerics, politicians, lawyers, PTs). Neither law nor science should be the new religion.
I should I be cast into Hades, flesh torn from my body, bones burned in everlasting fire.
PS: I was an altar-boy when I was 10 yr old. :-)

I agree about the science and law NOT being the new religion, but it is for a vast growing population (science anyway) as flawed as it is.

I think you are being a little harsh and overdramatic in your apologies. No one deserves to have flesh torn and burned, eek. Well maybe some of the psychopathic criminals that prey on little children, but I draw the line there!

I hope you survived the experience as a 10 yr old intact...

[flerc]

Your forgetting that not everything about scoliosis is known to the experts, (which means that even the experts aren't really experts - allthough they probably know more than all of us) which means there's a grey area in between.

EXACTLYY!! This is her problem, she not realize how absurd is to believe blindly in what someone without enough knowledge may say. Is a common misunderstanding among people without an actual idea about what science really is. They think that is something like a religion in which they must to trust.
Great post!!

[flerc]

Aclaration: I'm not saying that all people without enough studies about science take it as a religion. I also know about so many with enough logic and common sense to put all in the right place.

[TAMZTOM]

Post of the month nomination :-)
LOL.

Cheers Sharon. :-)

...the new religion, but it is for a vast growing population...

Hi Rohrer. I wasn't having a dig at GOOD science, or GOOD anything. I benefit from GOOD anything. (I'm using GOOD to recapture the use of the word from holy proprietorship.) I like GOOD science (e.g., genetic sequencing), I like GOOD law (e.g., Mandela making it), I like GOOD ballet, but I don't anything being GOD.

I think you are being a little harsh and overdramatic in your apologies.

When I was a little boy, that's what the priests told me was 100% certain to be my natural history!

I hope you survived the experience as a 10 yr old intact...

Thankfully Rohrer, yes, I survived. As a 19 yr old, I was circumcised to symbolise my release from the Purgatory of the mind. :-)

[flerc]

Your forgetting that not everything about scoliosis is known to the experts, (which means that even the experts aren't really experts - allthough they probably know more than all of us)

I agree with this. There are folks here who clearly don't agree with this. That's why this forum has enough folk science to choke 5,000 elephants. It's stunning in that regard.

Sharon, you are probably the only one here that not agrees that experts in scoliosis are not really experts as he is saying. so you believe blindly in what you hear. It’s a matter of faith for you and of course, nobody is criticizing your faith. Faith is Faith, so it not needs to be justified with any logic, but you must to understand that you cannot expect that everybody here must to be a man or a woman of faith like you. That is why what people think is so confused for you and you allways talk about folk science. Faith and Science are really different, try to not confuse it any more.

[Pooka1]

Are we on Candid Camera?

[sjmcphee]

I only stop in now and then and look at a few threads
There always seems to be some dispute going on…
I could spend more time looking at the forums talking and learning about stuff,
- but that would take time away from the other things I’m doing that I believe are more constructive and that I hope will improve scoliosis on the internet
I think I’m starting to see what’s going on here though…
It seems to me that this forum is trying to do to many things at once.
And what I mean by that is this:
It seems like Pooka realises that this forum is the most important support forum for scoliosis on the internet, and she is desperately trying to defend the quality of the information posted in the research forum, because she thinks (and I also would tend to agree) that whenever someone new comes here and goes to the research forum they should be presented with reliable and reputable information.
She’s trying to defend the quality of information and with it the integrity of this forum which is a commendable thing, however I’m not sure she always goes about it the right way which is why she rubs some of the members up the wrong way.
But here’s where it gets tricky,
If Pooka is right in her belief that the information posted on the research forum should be 100% reliable, accurate, evidence based information, then that leaves exactly NO ROOM for the 99.9% of members on this site who are in her words laypeople who may wish to discuss and talk about research related ideas.
Even if some of it is weird and crazy stuff, (and some people may also include my scoliosis ideas in that category and that’s ok.), that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be a place for discussion for these ideas.
So really the research forum is being pulled in 2 different directions.
Nothing in this world gets sorted without communication.
We need to look at the problem, be realistic about it and see what can be done to fix it.
Maybe there’s a need to create extra forum categories?
(It’s as simple a creating another top level menu item in the v-bulletin forum backend or admin. – About as easy as creating a new folder on your pc)
Would this resolve the issue?
It seems to me at times were all much more content to disagree with each other about things,
I wish for a change that we as a group could agree on something for once.

- Scott

[rohrer01]

I don't think creating another category would help. People will still post in the research section. I understand, also, what Pooka is trying to do. However, with that said, there is room in the research section to post and comment on research, whether it be considered by some to be quackery.

If it is being researched by legitimate doctors, then there is room to discuss it, even by laymen. Maybe changing how people start threads by limiting them to published articles only might help, I don't know. There is a lot of good research out there that isn't published, yet. So in those terms it wouldn't be fair to not include that.

Any reasoning, intelligent person will READ the disclaimer statement before entering the forum. It says to proceed with caution, if I remember correctly.

Exchange of ideas is a good thing, even from laymen. For someone's absurd thought could lead a legitimate researcher to look at something from a different angle. So it sums up to leaving the research section alone. It works just fine, aside from the bickering and fighting. Let the administrators decide if the pseudoscience and folkscience articles need to be removed.

If someone is taking everything posted on this forum as the TRUTH, then shame on them. This is a place to come for help and ideas. Most help comes from other's experiences. While research is good, it does a patient very little good to take that information to their doctor, as the doctor is still going to do things his way. Really, as I see it, the real benefit comes from just knowing what researchers are up to. People will form their own opinions and are entitled to them, no matter their background. Maybe because of a trend in the research, someone with a non-urgent situation may hold off, or choose to go to the facility that offers the latest and greatest (most people can't do this because of insurance restrictions, anyway).

That's my layperson's unbiased opinion!

[flerc]

Are we on Candid Camera?

Is what it seems..And finally you'll come laughing on our faces saying something as 'Hey friends, did you really believe I was talking seriously all these years?
Great joke!

[flerc]

I only stop in now and then and look at a few threads
She’s trying to defend the quality of information and with it the integrity of this forum which is a commendable thing, however I’m not sure she always goes about it the right way which is why she rubs some of the members up the wrong way.

Scott she is only trying to convince people to 'embrace her faith'.

[Pooka1]

Maybe there’s a need to create extra forum categories?
(It’s as simple a creating another top level menu item in the v-bulletin forum backend or admin. – About as easy as creating a new folder on your pc)
Would this resolve the issue?

I like this suggestion.

I think the Research section is useless because we only have one researcher who has worked with scoliosis. An entire section with only one person with the training to post in it.

Maybe another section could be created called "Folk Research" where untrained people discuss their unlettered opinions about complex biochemical, neurobiological, and orthopedic issues related to scoliosis. They can also post their folk science ideas about new research avenues that other folk scientists should pursue.

I guess it's really a matter of valuing the scientific method or not. Or maybe actually even knowing what the scientific method is or not. If someone doesn't value ration and reason then you can't use ration and reason to try to convince them. There appears to be no shortage of "romantic" notions about some lay person sitting in a corner of some room dreaming up something that the researchers never considered. Is that impossible? No. Is it likely? No. Folks simply don't know what they don't know.