Help!

[flerc]

Interesting methods used in Barcelona, Spain.

See page 293 for Sastre treatment using FED unit in English.

http://books.google.com/books?id=y35...d=0CAkQ6AEwAA#

50-90Kg is one hell of a pull. Thats 110-190# Wow!

The Spanish sure does put a twist on this..... still very interesting.
There are a few links posted, still looking at all these.

Flerc
Is there a possibility that you might go to Spain? Are any of these methods being practiced in Argentina?
Ed

Ed, I have a sister living in Barcelona, but there is that machine in Buenos Aires. The problem is that my daughter has Risser 4, menarche when she was 12 years old, it seems also about last x-rays that her growth is finished probably at all. They said me that it only works (reduce degrees) before that state.
Probably because GPR, she has a great (at least for me) flexibility, she could voluntary unrotate and stretch her column in a way that it seems to be like a normal back. So I think that in her current state (when she was Risser 2, surely would was different) it could not help more than other therapy like ABR o Spinecor that I think, could help to keep that stretch. Unfortunally it not exist in Argentina and probably will never exists..

Regards
Fernando

[flerc]

Two years ago it was 54°. I didn’t know absolutely nothing about scoliosis and the tramatology made a bad measurement and said 43°. We was not so worry and during this year the only treatment was Antigymnastique. Next year was 57° as a good measurement of the current surgeon (who recommended surgeon) said. The first and more convincing and that seems with less risk was GPR. We noted a good improvement in all senses, and the x-ray of July was of 47°. Of course was enormous the happiness we felt, the surgeon said that even he has not explication about what could happened, he not recommended surgery.
Last month, the x-rays showed 56°. The GPR therapist said that never before she presenced nothing similar, and he saw as impossible to decrease and increase so many degrees in a short time.
Surgeon, who now recommended surgeon again, said that it could happen.
I told him that probably in last x-ray, her column no was parallel at all to the x-ray machine, and he agreed. I was analyzing in more details and it no seemed so probable.
I think that surely, as in the last x-ray her left shoulder was so upper, and not like that in the new, and so she is so flexibly, the July’ x-ray don’t reflected the reality.
Of course I remains obtaining different opinion from doctors..

Sharon, tell me about your twins please.

Do you have any x-rays from before last year?

[flerc]

Like Abr people says (in fact is a matter of problem solving), no matter with the original cause, current causes are the important ones!
By definition, in ideophatic scoliosis, original cause is unknown, not like the currents causes, as are decrypted in the scoliosis’s vicious circle.
Much of those causes are the result from the scoliosis itself as vertebral and inter vertebral wedge, muscular and neuromuscular distortions, bad posture, biomechanical alteration..
Could it be that the original and unknown cause remains as a current cause too. In that case, would be logic to think that a solution could not be found until that cause will be known. But is so possible that that cause operated only at the beginning, as ABR people says, and then the disaster grow up alone.. in fact not alone. Gravity contributes without any doubt.

But in thoracic or lumbar thoracic, the sternum conform and structure with the ribs and vertebras. It seems logic to think that when the sternum has reached the solidification, that structure could not be change and then, vertebras could not be unrotated and then, degrees could not be reduced.
So the second question is :

2) Is it true all that about the thoracic structure? Which is the age when sternum reaches the solidification?

As in the first question, I recived differents and opposites answers from doctors.
I really think they should have to know the true about this.

[dailystrength]

dailystrength, you are just before the limit. If you live in my country surgeons will expect one degree more for do surgery on you.. in fact only the more experienced, for the most 40 or 45 degrees is the limit.
Is so comforting for me to heard what your surgeon said.. I can’t belive it.. of course I don’t doubt on what you said.. we live in two different worlds without any doubt!.

I’m really grateful for saying me that.

Thanks. I try to stay encouraged myself. He said that even if I progress a degree a year for the next 20 years, if I am managing okay, it is still better than surgery. He is a neurosurgeon at a major teaching hospital and he is in the Scoliosis Research Society, and has published many articles. I am anxious to view my next x-ray in May.

[Pooka1]

Sharon, tell me about your twins please.

My identical twins were diagnosed at 12. They both had right thoracic curves but otherwise were very different. One had a curve that moved 5* a month at least for the entire observation period of 5-6 months. She was fused in March 2008. The other had a curve that would move or stay stable whether she was in a brace or not. She was fused in October 2009.

It is probably important to note they have some connective tissue disorder which I am told is still considered "idiopathic" though I don't understand why. I guess they still don't quite know the mechanism of the scoliosis even if they can associate it with a specific genetic disorder.

They both look and feel normal. The surgeon says they are not expected to need any more surgery in their life for scoliosis. They have moved on in their life.

[flerc]

My identical twins were diagnosed at 12. They both had right thoracic curves but otherwise were very different. One had a curve that moved 5* a month at least for the entire observation period of 5-6 months. She was fused in March 2008. The other had a curve that would move or stay stable whether she was in a brace or not. She was fused in October 2009.

It is probably important to note they have some connective tissue disorder which I am told is still considered "idiopathic" though I don't understand why. I guess they still don't quite know the mechanism of the scoliosis even if they can associate it with a specific genetic disorder.

They both look and feel normal. The surgeon says they are not expected to need any more surgery in their life for scoliosis. They have moved on in their life.

Sharon, both fusions was made over 3 months ago and they feel good, so you could be sure it were so good surgeries and it’s true what surgeon said to you. I have heard about of complications before that period.. that’s why I consider surgery a solution of a high risk, but obviously in some cases it should be accepted that risk and could be a great solution but is difficult to know before fusion was made. I’m happy for you.
A friend has a daughter in very similar conditions that mine, but with a double curve. The fusion was only in a curve and after some months, the other curve became to reduce alone. Recently he said me that scoliosis is nearly a bad recall (recuerdo). I think he is feeling so good and I so bad… but I’m sure I must to find what I’m looking for and of course all scoliosis are so different.. in his daughter few vertebras was necessary to be fusioned because the type of curve..
Is your twin of the last fusion using brace? I think Spinecor should be the best. I’m so sorry it not exists in my country..
It’s true what you say about the criteria of idiopathic definition. I note something I could not define, but as a neurological disorder very much subtle in fact, but doctors says it not exists, because she passed the proofs. I think I could do that superficially proofs too..

Un saludo y seguimos en contacto

Fer

[Pooka1]

I’m happy for you.

Muchas gracias mi amigo, Flerc.

Is your twin of the last fusion using brace?

No neither of my daughters needed a brace after the surgery. Very few kid need a brace after surgery because the rods and screws are so strong. In fact 95% of kids don't even need any physical restrictions after surgery because the instrumentation is so strong.

Before surgery, my daughter whose curve moved 5* a month was never braced. I think the surgeons knew that when it moves that fast that no brace will hold it.

Before surgery, my other daughter wore a brace at night (Charleston bending brace) but the curve increased in the brace. She wore it every night for a year and stopped wearing it when it didn't fit I think due to the bigger curve.

[flerc]

Thanks. I try to stay encouraged myself. He said that even if I progress a degree a year for the next 20 years, if I am managing okay, it is still better than surgery. He is a neurosurgeon at a major teaching hospital and he is in the Scoliosis Research Society, and has published many articles. I am anxious to view my next x-ray in May.

Please tell your neurosurgeon to come to Argentina! He must to give a conference. I spoke by telephone with the surgeon considered the best in my country and he said me that he saw like that impossible that a curve of so many degrees like my daughter’s column is, could not need surgery. Is your surgeon an exception in your country?
I think he has reason in what he told you. I know a women over 60 years old with 80° with a normal life without pain.. Recently she won a swimming competition.. but she is ever doing something like GPR, gravitatory gymanastic, Feldenkrais… recently Atlas Profilaxis.

Thanks! And please tell me more about you

Fer

[flerc]

Ed, I have a sister living in Barcelona, but there is that machine in Buenos Aires. The problem is that my daughter has Risser 4, menarche when she was 12 years old, it seems also about last x-rays that her growth is finished probably at all. They said me that it only works (reduce degrees) before that state.
Probably because GPR, she has a great (at least for me) flexibility, she could voluntary unrotate and stretch her column in a way that it seems to be like a normal back. So I think that in her current state (when she was Risser 2, surely would was different) it could not help more than other therapy like ABR o Spinecor that I think, could help to keep that stretch. Unfortunally it not exist in Argentina and probably will never exists..

Regards
Fernando

Ed, in fact Fed machine is used in Spain in adults! It seems that stretching and decompression is good for everyone. http://escoliosis.org/escoforo/index...sg6591#msg6591 I could help you to translate it.
Ed, in fact Fed machine is used in Spain in adults! It seems that stretching and decompression is good for everyone. I could help you to translate it.

P.D: Forgive my ignorance but what do you means in your sign with ‘new and now’?
Fer

[flerc]

Hi, I’m an argentine father of a pretty girl of 16 years old. I hope you could understand my poor English.
She has as a severe scoliosis, but we are looking for a non surgical treatment. It would be great for me to contact with parents of daughters in similar conditions, seeking for the same kind of solution.
I want to reduce her curve all that it could be possible to reduce.
I’m evaluating a lot of different alternatives like ABR (Advanced Biomechanical Rehabilitation), SpineCor, Fed Machine, Global Postural Re-education (GPR), EDF (Cotrel), Feldenkrais …, but I feel very bad with myself because after one year of investigation, I could not find the knowledge I think necessary for select the best solution (surely a combination of treatments) for her.
I think that as in any kind of problem, exists some facts, that could not be ignored for arrive to a satisfactory solution.
I have contacted with a lot of people in the Spanish forum in www.escoliosis.org but even I have known good people, it seems that nobody with a daughter like mine has much interest in the Spanish spoken world to know that facts, that should lead to the best choice in each case.

I really feel a great loneliness. I’m not a health professional and I had not a medical in my familiars or friends. It seems I’m fighting in the darkness. I’m sure medicals professionals must to know that facts I’m looking for. I have elaborated some questions, which should leads to those facts. I have asked a lot of doctors in my country, but the most refused to answer those questions and the so few answers I had recollected are contradictorys or inconsistents.
If anyone (father or not) wants to know that facts too, or knows somebody that could answer my questions, please make me know

Thanks in advance!

My request is about some questions, but they are only one of the main outputs of a problem solving process I have started one year ago.
Before continuing doing that questions I want to order in some way what I have elaborated. It will requieres several posts.

As in every problem, we must start defining the problem. In same way I made this detailing more or lest the type of scoliosis of my daughter.
I think it could be useful for many parents with children in more or lest similar conditions, and probably in other cases, ..who know.
The next we must do is defining the requirements, that is, describing what will be a satisfactory solution for us.
Of course I’ll continuing defining all under my point of view.

Solution Requirements:
Not great pain as a consequence of her scoliosis during her life, no much often back pain like in normal people, no problem with vital functions or organs like lungs, not an evident (at least no much evident) curve or hump for people who never have heard about scoliosis when she is waking in bikini in the beach (like now) for at least 20 years more .
A permanent reduction in her Cobb angle to at least one degree less than the critic angle.
I’ll define next what this means for me.

I think that the solution will consist in a treatment that surely she should to follow during all her life. So restrictions will refer mainly over that treatment, that could continuously change over time.

Restrictions:
Not to be painful or ugly in some sense.
Not much expensive (it’s difficult for define that, but it could be able to affront for me now)
Not much more than 1 and a half hour 2 times per week with some therapeutic and not much more than 1 and a half hour of home exercise (or something like that).
Also
Could to be follow a normal life, without other restrictions as nothing of drugs, smoke, alcohol, extreme sports, carring heavy weights..

If treatment would consist in something like Yoga, Qi Gong, GPR, Feldenkrais, Body Mind Centering ore something like that, I think it would be the kind of life that all we must to follow, with or without scoliosis.

[flerc]

It would be only a matter of lucky to could advance in a solution without at least part of the expertise knowledge. We could see it in some way as composed by significant facts, that is the facts (assumptions, affirmations.. or as we want to call its) that must to be taken in account in at least one satisfactory solution.
Going deeper, some facts could be changed or altered (by the solver problem) and other could not. Any kind of solution is delimitated in some way by the fundamentals facts (ff), that is, the unalterable facts that could not be ignored in some kind of solution. By instance, (I’m not sure of that) some kind of properties or behaviors of metals could be a ff in surgery solutions but not in conservative ones and the kind of damage in the apex disk could be a ff in conservative but not in surgery solutions.
In every problem, we could spend a lot of time and resources if we have not correctly identified those fundamentals facts for the kind of solution selected.

In fact I’m trying now to know about the FF in conservative solutions.
I think that the answers of the questions I’m making, could lead to those ff.

[flerc]

Muchas gracias mi amigo, Flerc.



No neither of my daughters needed a brace after the surgery. Very few kid need a brace after surgery because the rods and screws are so strong. In fact 95% of kids don't even need any physical restrictions after surgery because the instrumentation is so strong.

Before surgery, my daughter whose curve moved 5* a month was never braced. I think the surgeons knew that when it moves that fast that no brace will hold it.

Before surgery, my other daughter wore a brace at night (Charleston bending brace) but the curve increased in the brace. She wore it every night for a year and stopped wearing it when it didn't fit I think due to the bigger curve.

Querida Sharon, I really think you could be sure no brace will be needed by any of your daughters. It’s so little what I know about scoliosis but I’m sure that the scoliosis’s circle vicious could be transformed to a virtuous circle and nothing could do in so direct, effective and at least fast way than surgery does.
I think that it should make Biomechanical and neuromuscular system change in the right way, so posture would be better over time. But some of ‘help’ could be needed sometimes, like given for techniques as Feldenkrais, Eutonia, Alexander, Body mind centering, bioenergetyc, Gpr.. surely great things are useful with or without fusion.

Un beso y me alegro mucho de conocerte
Fer

[dailystrength]

I think he has reason in what he told you. I know a women over 60 years old with 80° with a normal life without pain.. Recently she won a swimming competition.. but she is ever doing something like GPR, gravitatory gymanastic, Feldenkrais… recently Atlas Profilaxis.

Thanks! And please tell me more about you

Fer

Yes, my doctor has a lot of experience with scoliosis. He has given me Physical therapy referrals whenever I request one. I have learned Pilates and core strengthening exercises for my lumbar curve, and I had some more PT to strengthen my thoracic area (shoulder, neck), as well as massage. I am pretty much pain-free.

My curve was diagnosed at age 12 and I wore a Boston brace for a year and my curve reduced to under 20, from 34 lumbar originally. I was offered surgery at that time! But I chose the conservative route. I am glad I did- techniques were not the best at that time (late 70s). At age 44 I ordered an x-ray due to sharp lumbar and exhausting thoracic pain. The x-ray showed 49 degree lumbar & 34 throracic curves. Shocked, I undertook two rounds of PT and took up weights, yoga, swimming, dance, you name it - I joined a gym with a great variety of activities. A year has passed and I am mostly pain-free at my office job. I also walk at lunchtime if I am able, for 30 minutes. I am hoping to also try the Schroth method. I will find out in May how I am doing. I am consulting a book called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings which has some helpful information.
Your mention of the 80-year old gives me hope! Anyway, that's a bit about me.
When a curve is discovered, it seems scary and overwhelming. But nothing is an emergency. I hope you find some answers. Keep asking good questions!

[flerc]

Some fundamentals facts (ff) are known as the scoliosis’s vicious circle. In fact it is the result of real ff as the fact that gravity pull down the column most time of the day (at least considering no more than 8-10 hours sleeping and no much of the rest of time swimming).
Not only inter vertebral disk but also vertebra wedge increase under pressure are ones of the others ff.
In fact this vicious circle could be seen as the current (and known) cause of the scoliosis, that is, the facts that are causing, increasing or allowing it now.
If we want to destroy that cause, nothing could be imagine as surgery, but in conservatives solution, this cause must to be absolutely understand. Many facts that could be ignored in surgery solutions could surely be ff in conservative ones.

Of course any kind of satisfactory solution should stretch the column and keep that stretching. That is what surgery does. Stretching is doing applying a big force. Newton’s laws says that another force generate resistance to that force. So:

3) Which is the source of the resistance of the column to be stretched?
Rigid vertebral joints, short muscles in the concave side, solidification of sternum (in thoracic curves), ligaments, inalterability of inter vertebral disk space, medullar tension, vertebral rotation?
In last case, which is the source for unrotation resistence? Are there another factors?
Which is the most important of those factors? It depends in each case? Why could then be determined?

[flerc]

Yes, my doctor has a lot of experience with scoliosis. He has given me Physical therapy referrals whenever I request one.

You are so lucky to have a doctor like that.

I have learned Pilates and core strengthening exercises for my lumbar curve, and I had some more PT to strengthen my thoracic area (shoulder, neck), as well as massage. I am pretty much pain-free.

Pilates in my country seems to be so hard. I think that as Yoga must to be teaches from people with a great knowledge from scoliosis. The PT for strengthen your torax is from Pilates?

My curve was diagnosed at age 12 and I wore a Boston brace for a year and my curve reduced to under 20, from 34 lumbar originally. I was offered surgery at that time! But I chose the conservative route. I am glad I did- techniques were not the best at that time (late 70s).

Did you passed from 20 to 49 in those years since 13 years old or since growth finished? It’s sound incredible they wanted to surgeon you with so few degrees!
What kind of exercise was you during the 70’ ?

At age 44 I ordered an x-ray due to sharp lumbar and exhausting thoracic pain. The x-ray showed 49 degree lumbar & 34 throracic curves. Shocked, I undertook two rounds of PT and took up weights, yoga, swimming, dance, you name it - I joined a gym with a great variety of activities. A year has passed and I am mostly pain-free at my office job. I also walk at lunchtime if I am able, for 30 minutes. I am hoping to also try the Schroth method. I will find out in May how I am doing. I am consulting a book called Curves, Twists, and Bends by Annette Wellings which has some helpful information.

thoracic pain has suddenly appears? What kind of dance? What do you mens with weights? I think combining different things would be the best. It’s a good signal you have improved in a short time.

Your mention of the 80-year old gives me hope! Anyway, that's a bit about me.
When a curve is discovered, it seems scary and overwhelming. But nothing is an emergency.

In fact that woman has over 60 years old and 80º.. less years but much more degrees!
It was so devastating for me to measure 56º a weeks before when in July was 47º and 57º 1 year before.. but you are right saying is not an emergency

I hope you find some answers. Keep asking good questions!

Thanks. I think it could be the only way for a good selection for the treatment of my daughter. I’m hopeful in this forum. I have only received the most absolutely indifference before.