Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[Dingo]

let me know

LindaRacine

Yet, you keep returning without changing your own behavior.

What could I do better?

[Pooka1]

What could I do better?

Stop lying for a start.

[rohrer01]

If I posted what Dingo posts I would excoriate myself. Intellectual honesty would demand it. When you play for the science team you can't even think about freelancing for the other team.

I honestly thought that this was a place to come for free interchange of information. I didn't find anything offending about Dingo's post. Yes, for a fact I have disagreed with Dingo in the past and I have stated so. But, as a moderator, whether Linda likes it or not, she IS representing the NSF to the general population. I don't like getting sucked into other people's arguments. I just felt bad because I thought that this was a legitimate post. It wasn't outlandish or folksciency. He was excited for what happened to his friend's daughter. If anyone with scoliosis, or with a child with scoliosis, can be given a shred of hope to think they might be doing something good for themselves or their child, that is a good thing. Hope changes the mental attitude from negative to positive.

I could think of better things to legitimately criticize for, but not this. I can't say that exercise is folkscience, as I'm sure there are some here more qualified than me to express the same opinion. I know that when I exercise my pain gets better. Something good must be happening in there, even if my curve doesn't improve.

I'm not butting in to dispute true science over folkscience. I'm butting in over human kindness. There were far more tactful ways that Linda could have expressed herself.

It's sad to think that this is how people think of us when we leave the doctor's office over what may be a minimal thing to the "medical" staff, but be a very big thing to the patient or parent. What if the little girl's mom reads what Linda posted? Granted, my son had a curve of about that at about 8 or 9 years old that had completely resolved on it's own by age 12 or so. But you never know who is going to be in that "lucky" group that goes on to progress. At least her parents caught it very early and did something. Now they can feel like they did everything they could, whether it was the exercise or not that fixed it. That is a good feeling as a parent and worth sharing.

Everyone knows that positive attitudes and love contribute to good health. (and no, I'm not saying they will cure scoliosis, but a better attitude DOES reduce pain - that's from personal experience) People come on here for information about the disease and to share and express themselves. I think we should all be a little more kind, including me, whether frustrated or not.

[rohrer01]

I am not affiliated with the NSF, and do not represent them. I'm a patient and active poster here first. I was asked to moderate because of my activity and experience. As part of that, I didn't sign away any rights about what to post. I find it interesting that you found my statement to be a severe attack, but never said a word about some of the nastigrams launced by Dingo. What is it about certain people that makes them go right to the personal attack strategy when they don't have a credible argument on the debate?

And, believe what you will, I am an equal opportunity poster. If Sharon had posted what Dingo posted, I would have made the same comment.

Oh, but you are wrong. To people that come to this forum you DO represent the NSF. I for one would have to frown upon them if they let this kind on fighting go on in THEIR forum.

As far as Dingo's attacks. YOU are the moderator and supposed to be the grownup here. I haven't been on this board long enough to see what everyone has said. Quite frankly, maybe I didn't read the threads you are talking about. In fact I HAVE chastized Dingo for being closed minded. But, when some people are constantly criticized in a hurtful way, they simply shut down and don't want to hear any more from the people who talk that way to them. I feel that I have been cross-the-line frank with Dingo.

I feel that this kind of behavior on the part of the moderator is disturbing. It limits people from posting because they may be afraid you will say something like to them. It embarrasses some people to be treated that way. Dingo keeps coming back because he, apparently, isn't one of those kind of people that will be stifled out of fear of retaliation.

This hostility needs to STOP or people will quit coming here. I wish everyone would just quit fighting.

And BTW, this thread is no longer progressive in any positive way. The fighting always seem to ruin the good threads.

[Pooka1]

I honestly thought that this was a place to come for free interchange of information. I didn't find anything offending about Dingo's post. Yes, for a fact I have disagreed with Dingo in the past and I have stated so.

You are relatively new here. And what is your concern level with other lay people coming on here, reading this stuff and popping for a $5K MedX machine using $5K they really can't afford? That is sad.

But, as a moderator, whether Linda likes it or not, she IS representing the NSF to the general population. I don't like getting sucked into other people's arguments. I just felt bad because I thought that this was a legitimate post. It wasn't outlandish or folksciency. He was excited for what happened to his friend's daughter. If anyone with scoliosis, or with a child with scoliosis, can be given a shred of hope to think they might be doing something good for themselves or their child, that is a good thing. Hope changes the mental attitude from negative to positive.

Linda's comments in no way undermined the success of the girl. It exclusively addressed the intentionally misleading way it was posted. I was blindsided by the criticism Linda's post received as it was obvious that it wasn't directed at the girl and her family. This is yet another instance of if you can't engage the substance, complain about tone. It is the only tactic available of certain anti-science, counterfactual positions. I recognize it immediately and it makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck because it isn't honest criticism. At this point, if someone even mentions tone I consider that they have conceded the arguments on merit. (Also, if someone mentions Weiss's ridiculous article on pros and cons of surgery I consider that a concession in the argument. Some things are by their nature avoiding the argument at hand.)

Everyone knows that positive attitudes and love contribute to good health. (and no, I'm not saying they will cure scoliosis, but a better attitude DOES reduce pain - that's from personal experience) People come on here for information about the disease and to share and express themselves. I think we should all be a little more kind, including me, whether frustrated or not.

I could possibly overlook everything except the researcher bashing. That is just beyond the pale. The researchers are the good guys. When we have an untrained person come on here and accuse a researcher and past SRS resident of doing "silly" science, that's over my folkscience limit by a mile.

[Pooka1]

This hostility needs to STOP or people will quit coming here.

I never thought I would say it but I think some people would be more comfortable on other fora that are not so wedded to science and facts. It would be a favor to themselves.

[mamamax]

Case in Point .....

[flerc]

I want to know something

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year)

Is so frequent that the curve is completely gone at age 11 in a spontaneous way? If not, no doubt is a great notice, great post, congratulations and thanks for share!

[hdugger]

Is so frequent that the curve is completely gone at age 11 in a spontaneous way? If not, no doubt is a great notice, great post, congratulations and thanks for share!

No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

[Pooka1]

No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

For all right TL curves (magnitude < or = 18*), 10/80 = 12.5% resolved completely and spontaneously.

For all types of 11* curves, 20/80 or 25% resolved completely and spontaneously.

N.B. small sample sizes.

[Dingo]

coincidence

hdugger

No, it's not that frequent. According to what's been posted so far, there's about a 10% chance that the curve will spontaneously completely reduce and a 15% chance that it will progress.

Yep and what are the odds that regression would occur at precisely the same time that PT began? 1 in a million?

What an amazing coincidence.

[hdugger]

For all right TL curves (magnitude < or = 18*), 10/80 = 12.5% resolved completely and spontaneously.

For all types of 11* curves, 20/80 or 25% resolved completely and spontaneously.

N.B. small sample sizes.

Small sample size, and it also looked as if the natural history was different for boys and girls, but I didn't have time to parse out the data.

Also, it's likely that the xrays are from someone diagnosed with juvenile scoliosis (just a guess that she was younger then 10 when diagnosed, since she's only 11 now) and I don't have a good handle on the prognosis for that age group at all.

[rohrer01]

hdugger



Yep and what are the odds that regression would occur at precisely the same time that PT began? 1 in a million?

What an amazing coincidence.

Dingo, how do you know that regression occurred at the same time as PT began? Were they following her from zero to 11*? If not, you really can't say that. It could have been worse at some point prior and they didn't find it until it started to get better and was already improved to 11*. My son had a curve about that size spontaneously dissappear.

[Pooka1]

Small sample size, and it also looked as if the natural history was different for boys and girls, but I didn't have time to parse out the data.

Also, it's likely that the xrays are from someone diagnosed with juvenile scoliosis (just a guess that she was younger then 10 when diagnosed, since she's only 11 now) and I don't have a good handle on the prognosis for that age group at all.

I think she was 11 when diagnosed and is 12 now.

These sample sizes are probably too small to discuss in anything other than a lumped, overarching way. If fact the total sample size might be too small to say much.

[hdugger]

Dingo, you probably know the statistics for juvenile scoliosis better then I do. What's the risk of progressing, given a very small curve at diagnosis?