Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[mamamax]

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year)

Dingo - Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words - in this case, maybe a million. No one, that I am aware of, can predict what course any curve may take. The best anyone can do is speculate - and speculation often proves faulty over the course of a lifetime.

True cause to celebrate for this young girl and her family, regardless of any monetary cost. Thank for posting!

[mamamax]

Originally Posted by Dingo

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year) http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5517/trs1year.jpg

That is just so beyond ridiculous. A year worth of exercise to make an 11 degree curve, that had a snowball's chance in hell of progressing, into nothing. Wonder what the cost per degree was.

Maybe a lifetime of suffering has been avoided. How can this be defined as ridiculous? I don't recall that we had a medical evaluation which stated that this young girl's future involved a prognosis of: a snowball's chance in hell of progressing. Did I miss something?

Dingo - please extend my best wishes to this mom and her daughter - I'm sure the treatment cost paled in comparison to the results.

[Pooka1]

That is just so beyond ridiculous. A year worth of exercise to make an 11 degree curve, that had a snowball's chance in hell of progressing, into nothing. Wonder what the cost per degree was.

Exactly. It would have been extremely against the odds had she progressed. Here's some statistics...

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...5&d=1239026641

I believe these are from the Greek study which I can't locate at the moment.

That study showed a large fraction of kids who spontaneously resolved completely NOT doing torso rotation (to anyone's knowledge) if you can believe it.

To be wowed by this complete remission is to admit you are a folkscientist unfamiliar with the facts. Q.E.D.

[Pooka1]

Originally Posted by Dingo

An 11 year old girl (now 12) began torso rotation strength training approximately 1 year ago. Late today her mother e-mailed me the before and after x-rays. I put them together into one picture. This one is worth 1,000 words.

Before and after x-rays (1 year) http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/5517/trs1year.jpg

Maybe a lifetime of suffering has been avoided. How can this be defined as ridiculous?

Learn how to tell the difference between science and folkscience and the answer will become obvious to you.

[Pooka1]

I'm sure the treatment cost paled in comparison to the results.

The statistics suggest she wasted her time and money. Free country.

This is the type of "geniusry" we routinely see from the Clear chiros on Fix's site. It doesn't belong on a science and fact oriented group.

[Nim]

Well, I am glad you posted this! I don't believe torso rotation can hurt in a healthy scoliosis patient without pain. So why not try it????

My daughter has a 27 degree curve...we are joining a gym with a torso rotation machine......I will keep you posted.........

[Dingo]

pain

Nim

Well, I am glad you posted this! I don't believe torso rotation can hurt in a healthy scoliosis patient without pain. So why not try it????

Oddly enough the girl in those x-rays had quite a bit of pain/discomfort. After several months of strength training her pain was gone.

[Pooka1]

Nim



Oddly enough the girl in those x-rays had quite a bit of pain/discomfort. After several months of strength training her pain was gone.

Folkmedicine.

[LindaRacine]

The price tag of treating kids with 10 degree curves would bankrupt the U.S.

Approximately 10% of the population of the world has a scoliosis curve of >10 degrees. But, only about 10% of that 10% (1%) will actually require treatment in their lifetime.

So, let's say the U.S. population is 300,000,000 people. 10% of that population is 30,000,000. Let's say that one year of torso rotation exercise is $1,000. (That's probably very conservative, especially considering that these people would probably treat their kids for longer than a single year.) My calculator doesn't even go that high.

If individuals who have kids with curves between 10-25 degrees want to pay the tab out of their own pockets, that could actually solve the current economy dilemma. So, I'd definitely encourage it. If, however, one expects their insurance company to cover it, get ready for a price tag that would change everyone's life, and not for the better.

[Nim]

How do you figure so much money for torso rotation use? The gym near my house has a torso rotation machine, and to join the gym, it is $39.00 up front and then $9.99 a month, and If I sign up, I can bring a guest every time I go. So, she will go with me and use the machine.........And I get to stay in shape too......don't think that's a bad deal.....

I will not say I know a lot about the body or the science of it..........BUT, I DO know that the body is amazing....and exercise can often help with many problems our bodies may have.......Actually, my doctor once told me "Medicine is NOT an exact science..........

[LindaRacine]

How do you figure so much money for torso rotation use? The gym near my house has a torso rotation machine, and to join the gym, it is $39.00 up front and then $9.99 a month, and If I sign up, I can bring a guest every time I go. So, she will go with me and use the machine.........And I get to stay in shape too......don't think that's a bad deal.....

I will not say I know a lot about the body or the science of it..........BUT, I DO know that the body is amazing....and exercise can often help with many problems our bodies may have.......Actually, my doctor once told me "Medicine is NOT an exact science..........

Hi Nim...

One would need to work with a therapist for at least the beginning of treatment. I think a typical course of PT is relatively close to $1,000. And, not everyone has a gym with a torso rotation device near their home.

And, as I said, if you're paying for it privately, I totally endorse it.

--Linda

[hdugger]

Hi Nim...

One would need to work with a therapist for at least the beginning of treatment.

--Linda

Why would working with a physical therapist be required?

[Pooka1]

Stats on large collection of curves

Soucacos et al., 1998

A 5-year prospective study of 85,622 kids found 1,436 kids with scoliosis. (0.17% therefore genetic for sure! )

Results over an average observation of 3.2 years:

Progression - 14.7%
Spontaneous improvement of at least 5* - 27.4%
Complete spontaneous resolution - 9.5%

Therefore we have 36.9% whose curves decreased with 26% of these having a complete spontaneous resolution.

Then we have only 14.7% that progressed. That means that 85.3% either stayed the same or regressed, in some cases completely. Since 36.9% decreased and in some cases completely, then that means 48.4% stayed the same.

So the group that stayed the same was the largest accounting for almost half followed by the group that regressed, some completely which was more than a third of the total. The smallest group were the progressors and that was only 14.7%.

This is why Clear and ilk can dupe bunnies by claiming a 85+% "success" rate (100 - 14.7) when in fact that rate would be obtained had the kids done NO treatment. They exploit this.

[Pooka1]

Here is the text...

http://www.springerlink.com/content/...7/fulltext.pdf

From the abstract:

In conclusion, the findings of the present study strongly suggest that only a small percentage of scoliotic curves will undergo progression.

[skevimc]

I don't want to come across as biased. I've posted on several threads what I feel about RTS. I fully acknowledged and understand its weaknesses and faults. And I'll say explicitly that I think it would be wrong for a PT clinic to charge for RTS. It's certainly jumping the gun to charge insurance for something that's severely untested.

However, it seems like some of the negative comments on here are also jumping the gun a bit...

That is just so beyond ridiculous. A year worth of exercise to make an 11 degree curve, that had a snowball's chance in hell of progressing, into nothing. Wonder what the cost per degree was.

The statistics suggest she wasted her time and money. Free country.

I think the question of how much money was spent is a good one. But Dingo didn't post how this was paid for. Maybe they billed insurance and it cost $10k or maybe they did it at the local YMCA and they spent a couple of hundred bucks on a gym membership. Without knowing that information it's difficult to say what was wasted money

I'll certainly acknowledge the risk of that curve progressing was not the highest. So I understand the argument that the money was 'wasted'. However, the Soucacos et al., 1998 paper shows ~15-20% chance depending on the criteria selected (11-12 yr Female 11° R T/L). So I'm not sure if that would justify calling it wasted money. I'd further argue against that, but for reasons that could be considered non-scientific.

This is the type of "geniusry" we routinely see from the Clear chiros on Fix's site. It doesn't belong on a science and fact oriented group.

I get your point. But think you're being a tad hyper-critical. This is nowhere near the CLEAR folks. Nobody is claiming their surgery caused their colon cancer. As well, none of the RTS papers suggest they can reduce major curves.

Although the commercial products might be approaching the CLEAR realm of things.

The price tag of treating kids with 10 degree curves would bankrupt the U.S.

Approximately 10% of the population of the world has a scoliosis curve of >10 degrees. But, only about 10% of that 10% (1%) will actually require treatment in their lifetime.

So, let's say the U.S. population is 300,000,000 people. 10% of that population is 30,000,000. Let's say that one year of torso rotation exercise is $1,000. (That's probably very conservative, especially considering that these people would probably treat their kids for longer than a single year.) My calculator doesn't even go that high.

If individuals who have kids with curves between 10-25 degrees want to pay the tab out of their own pockets, that could actually solve the current economy dilemma. So, I'd definitely encourage it. If, however, one expects their insurance company to cover it, get ready for a price tag that would change everyone's life, and not for the better.

I don't know that anyone is suggesting treating 10% of the population. I doubt the treatment load would change much from what it is now. So I don't think this is a fair criticism.



Overall, it's a little weird at how personal the comments were towards the family from the x-rays. I'm hopeful that this was not the intent and that it was a symptom of the ongoing argument between several members. A girl had an 11° curve. And now she doesn't. Good news! All critiques after that appear to be based on assumptions (unless I missed something).