Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[skevimc]

mamamax

We work my son equally on both sides because that's what Dr. Mooney and Dr. McIntire studied. The results of this study are going to be very interesting.

Sure will. Especially because Mooney reported that the EMG difference was eliminated after therapy. Also, we both reported symmetrical strength afterward. Will the plot thicken???

[Dingo]

Topiary

Skevimc

Personally I'm betting on symmetrical training. The more equal (and strong) my son's paraspinal muscles become the straighter his back will grow.

My sense is that Scoliosis is something like a Bonsai tree. If you apply an unequal force to a growing object you will create deformity every time.

If Scoliosis was as simple as improper bone growth then why don't children with Scoliosis have crooked arms and legs? All or part of the problem has to be located in the muscles around the spine. I think your work not only sheds light on how Scoliosis can be treated but also what's causing it.

[hdugger]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but, in a spine where the muscles are weaker on one side than on the other, isn't symmetrical exercise actually asymmetical? That is, aren't the muscles on the weaker side working harder to achieve the same force?

[skevimc]

Maybe I'm missing the point here, but, in a spine where the muscles are weaker on one side than on the other, isn't symmetrical exercise actually asymmetical? That is, aren't the muscles on the weaker side working harder to achieve the same force?

Yes. It is for this reason that we progressed the patients' sides (or directions of rotation) at different speeds. For example, rotate right (convex) with 20 pounds; rotate left (concave) with 15 pounds. Concave is weaker so it starts with a smaller amount. Once concave can lift 20 pounds, increase weight symmetrically. Then we count the sets and reps. Convex does 25 pounds 3 sets of 7 reps. Concave side does 25 pounds 3 sets 4 reps. Increase once concave can do 3 sets 7 reps.

[mamamax]

Yes. It is for this reason that we progressed the patients' sides (or directions of rotation) at different speeds. For example, rotate right (convex) with 20 pounds; rotate left (concave) with 15 pounds. Concave is weaker so it starts with a smaller amount. Once concave can lift 20 pounds, increase weight symmetrically. Then we count the sets and reps. Convex does 25 pounds 3 sets of 7 reps. Concave side does 25 pounds 3 sets 4 reps. Increase once concave can do 3 sets 7 reps.

Now that - makes perfect sense! Thank you.

[Dingo]

bones of the foot

Skevimc

Do you have any opinion on the following statement?

If Scoliosis was purely a function of improper bone growth why wouldn't we see a greater incidence of bone deformities in children with AIS? For instance the foot contains 26 tightly packed bones, supports hundreds of pounds of force and takes hours of punishment each day. Shouldn't these bones be deformed as well? Even if these deformities didn't hit every child shouldn't there at least be a significantly, greater incidence?

I'm not suggesting that bones don't play a part because according to Dr. Alain Moreau they probably do.
Melatonin Signaling Dysfunction in Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis
But I don't see how bone health/deformity could be the single, decisive factor in AIS.

This reminds me of a story I read on Sciencedaily last week. All children with Down Syndrome have Alzheimers by the age of 30 or 40. This led one scientist to suspect that Down Syndrome and Alzheimers were essentially the same disease. New evidence proves that he was right. Alzheimers is simply late onset Down Syndrome.

Unlike the Down/Alzhemiers connection I've never seen AIS associated with any other bone disease/deformity except possibly an increase in Osteoporosis. I assume that Melatonin Signaling Dysfunction contributes to weak bones which can potentially lead to Osteoporosis.

[skevimc]

Skevimc

Do you have any opinion on the following statement?

If Scoliosis was purely a function of improper bone growth why wouldn't we see a greater incidence of bone deformities in children with AIS? For instance the foot contains 26 tightly packed bones, supports hundreds of pounds of force and takes hours of punishment each day. Shouldn't these bones be deformed as well? Even if these deformities didn't hit every child shouldn't there at least be a significantly, greater incidence?

I have fewer ideas about etiology than management. At any rate, I have no problem believing that some cases of IS could be a result of bone formation and/or melatonin signaling. The foot example is an interesting point. I would say that I'm sure there are deformations in the foot bones. But the foot is able to change shapes with relatively little functional or cosmetic deformity e.g. high arch, flat feet, pronated, supinated. Whereas, the spine has little room for error.

[reneemarie]

Hi! I just got off the phone with Roger Schwab from this article

"September-17-2008 - Video: (currently down) MedX torso machine reduces 8 year old girl's curve from 14 degrees to 8 degrees.
Roger Schwab: "We've seen it work on almost every case that we've had."
Main Line Health and Fitness Scoliosis page"

I don't know if anyone's posted this information yet so here's what I found out. I wanted to know if he's seen a decrease in curvature with adults during Torso Rotation. He told me that to this point he has not. His best success is with growing children but he also said they have only worked on 25 to 30 people. He told me that one child went from 16 degrees to zero curvature. He does not believe it is temporary. He recommended that I still try it using a Torso Rotation machine that Anchors the Pelvis (doesn't have to be MedX), a cervical extension machine and a machine that works the muscles in my lower back. They are desperately trying to get a grant to study this in broader terms. I told him to put together a template letter and let us know who he wants it sent to and send it to me so that I can post it on the board. If many of us respond, maybe we can make this study happen. Also, he told me to feel free to post his contact information if you have questions. Nice guy and very helpful.

Roger Schwab, 610-527-2200, Mainline Health and Fitness, Bryn Mawr PA

[aterry]

I would definitely send a letter. (or dozens)

[mamandcrm]

I don't post on this thread or the Clear-related thread, but I do read them and wanted to say thank you to all who are participating in the discussion, particularly hdugger and skevinc (?), who are newer to the forum. The information is very interesting and I appreciate the measured posts and responses. It's really helpful in terms of following the discussion when things stay so civilized. A program of exercise is not something we are doing now, or plan to do anytime in the near future, but has caught my attention as something to stay abreast of and consider for the future, whatever that may bring.

[dailystrength]

Yes, I also appreciate this discussion greatly. I am happy to help get any further research off the ground. Thanks, all.

[Dingo]

placebo effect

reneemarie

He told me that one child went from 16 degrees to zero curvature.

Assuming the 16 degree curve was in a Juvenile this child probably dodged a bullet.

In this sample of 205 Juvenile patients if a curve reached 21 degrees the chance of fusion was 75%.
Progression Risk of Idiopathic Juvenile Scoliosis During Pubertal Growth

[Dingo]

greater incidence

skevimc

I would say that I'm sure there are deformations in the foot bones. But the foot is able to change shapes with relatively little functional or cosmetic deformity e.g. high arch, flat feet, pronated, supinated. Whereas, the spine has little room for error.

Not to beat a dead horse but...

You are right, maybe different parts of the body have a greater tolerance for error than the spine. But no part of the body has unlimited tolerance. Shouldn't somebody have noticed a greater incidence of bone problems in children with AIS? I'm not saying 100%, just reliably higher than average.

I remember when my son was diagnosed my first thought was that he had a bone problem. It wasn't until almost a year later that I got to thinking, why doesn't he have other bone problems? He has more than 200 bones in his body, why is it just his spine?

[mamamax]

skevimc

I remember when my son was diagnosed my first thought was that he had a bone problem. It wasn't until almost a year later that I got to thinking, why doesn't he have other bone problems? He has more than 200 bones in his body, why is it just his spine?

Good question Dingo - maybe because ... it (IS) is not, initially, a bone problem

An interesting article I stumbled across w/morning coffee:
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec06/ch076/ch076d.html

[Dingo]

bones

mamamax

Good question Dingo - maybe because ... it (IS) is not, initially, a bone problem

I think that's what they'll ultimately discover.

I asked my son's doctor (the best in my city) what caused AIS. He said that his friends in the research community knew it was a neurological disorder but they weren't sure how it worked or what the trigger was. I assumed that meant that his nervous system was disrupting the way his bones grew and in response his spine grew crooked. But if that's true why is every other bone growing normally?

I'm sure that scientists are right, it's a neurological disorder. And no doubt bones are a link in the chain of events that cause Scoliosis. But it seems to me that something bigger is going on.

That fact that TRS works is a big clue that muscles are either the driving force or a key player.

BTW good link on the nervous system! I'm putting that in my favorites for reference.