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Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

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  • If I'm not completely misunderstanding (which is entirely possible as I've not had time to think about it - I'm actually at work ) that's interesting, as it would potentially support the supposedly debunked idea that regular assymetric loading (such as the abominably heavy bag I used to carry 2 miles each way from school) would exacerbate any predisposition to development of curvature. It also seems to me it would easily figure into the question of when/why "gravity" takes over and causes curve progression in the absence of other exacerbating factors (eg continued deterioration after skeletal maturity).

    Over the years there have been many discussions I recall which have gone along the lines of someone asking could this have caused it, and a load of people saying no, it's been disproved and anyway if it did cause it everyone would get curves, which have been deeply unsatisfying exchanges as it doesn't answer whether there is an interaction of poor biomechanics and predisposition.

    I'm actually more or less certain that while diagnosed as adolescent, my curvature was juvenile, as hindsight makes it clear it was not present to a noticeable extent prior to 7 but by the end of my first primary school year was apparent (my auntie used to make clothes for me, but didn't for a long time after having mum complain that she'd made my skirt uneven as it did not hang right - I wore it and the matching blouse to the school disco, and danced to Stand and Deliver in it, which was a very new song at the time ) - also quite abruptly I went from long bodied and slender looking to "short waisted" and having a pooch belly which didn't go away however hard I dieted and however much weight I lost.

    However, it was distinctly non-aggressive, as it didn't really change much as far as I can tell through until my later teens, including no significant change during a period in my teens when I grew in excess of 3 inches in a matter of months, but the lie of clothing didn't change and I had no significant posture change or anything else. At that point I was still lightly loaded, just carrying exercise books to and fro much of the time. The heavy loading coincided with another growth spurt, and I did have changes going on, but was told it was normal and that clearly I was stopping growing because when you're nearly stopped it's only the long bones that continue so that was why my legs and arms were getting longer and longer but my body was not. So who knows, it's just as likely all unrelated, but I doubt I'll stop being curious about the coincidences of it.
    aka Titch

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    • Holy freakin' moly!

      Mamamax

      Dynamic bone remodeling may apply to the vertebra of the spine in that maintaining equal pressures on both sides of the vertebra during motion may work towards modeling into more normal shape (for both children and adults).
      HOLY FREAKIN' MOLY!

      Torso rotation may tell the nervous system where the abnormalities are and then the body uses OPN to repair/correct them. That might explain the entire mystery on why it works!!! HOLY FREAKIN' MOLY! (I had to say that again)

      Where is that paragraph? I can't find it.
      Last edited by Dingo; 12-11-2009, 08:42 AM.

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      • It doesn't always work though, does it? I wonder why it doesn't, if bone can be remodelled. Any theories as to why not?

        ETA perhaps, during a growth spurt, the body grows faster than the rate at which bone can be remodelled by exercise?
        Last edited by tonibunny; 12-11-2009, 09:08 AM.

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        • I wonder whether osteopenia has any role to play in that - admittedly it's been so long since I have read anything on the incidence of osteopenia in people with scoliosis that I can't remember the numbers other than I have a feeling some studies found the link to be quite strong (but have no idea the quality of those studies even if I've remembered correctly), but perhaps the combination of osteopenia and growth spurts would provide a challenge beyond that which torso rotation can cope? Also, I wonder how strongly magnitude of starting curvature affects things?
          aka Titch

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          • I was just thinking that - surely it would be easier for smaller curves to be remodelled than larger ones. In which case, torso rotation exercises might be a good choice for people if they manage to catch scoliosis when it's still very mild, but not for those with more serious curves.

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            • If so, and if it is effective enough, it would be a really good argument at last for campaigning for the re-introduction of screening. As it currently stands, with few places (talking about UK here) offering anything except observation and eventual surgery if required, I eventually reached the conclusion I can't see the point in screening. The traditional figures say that only a small proportion of cases ever get as far as needing treatment, so I can well see the point that all the rigmarole of doctors, xrays, stress, and nothing being done other than comments that it's got a bit worse or that it's stayed the same, is pointless, whereas if something could be offered which allows the potential of stabilisation and even reversal, regular screening to discover curves as early and as small as possible (and then perhaps monitor them periodically with a scoliometer and photography of posture rather than radiation and only xray again if there is a change beyond certain criteria) would become a worthwhile thing.
              aka Titch

              Comment


              • Originally posted by txmarinemom View Post
                Okay, so ... I'm out the door to take my last final of the semester, but ...

                I was just running some quick searches and found some interesting information that kind of ties into this. I'll have to look more when I get home from school.

                I'm sure there's more current info out there, but here's an abstract that makes a link between rhBMP-2 (the bone morphogenetic protein many adult patients receive during fusion) osteogenesis (bone formation, simply put) and osteopontin.

                Like I said, I'm in a rush, but I'll pull the full article when I get home. Maybe it's relevant, maybe not. I'm not even sure what it might be relevant TO (heh), but you can kick it around in my absence.

                Mamamax, I should have access to the article you're looking for too if you want me to try to get it.

                Pam
                Yes Please! I would like the full article of the abstract you mention - so, that is something given to adult surgical patients, how often? I would like to read more about that. And if you can find the Frost papers that would be super! Hope you had a good day at school and aced that final. Thanks much.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dingo View Post
                  Mamamax



                  HOLY FREAKIN' MOLY!

                  Torso rotation may tell the nervous system where the abnormalities are and then the body uses OPN to repair/correct them. That might explain the entire mystery on why it works!!! HOLY FREAKIN' MOLY! (I had to say that again)

                  Where is that paragraph? I can't find it.
                  Dingo -

                  I thought that would peak your interest :-)

                  Peaked mine too. The information you're looking for is supposed to be in the Frost papers (referenced below).

                  IF there is something to this dynamic bone remodeling (by applying and maintaining equal pressures on both sides of the vertebra during motion) that results in a more normal shape - well that could be significant to us all. The human body does attempt to repair itself and looks like OPN plays an important role. Note Pam's contribution up thread. I hope she can find the Frost papers and I would also be very interested in reading the one she mentions specific to surgical patients.

                  I don't want to speculate too far without reading more but maybe this will help towards understanding why some non surgical methods effect some curves in a good way (but not others) .. possibly something to do with the many variations there may be in curvatude combined with the many variations there be in applying and maintaining equal pressures during motion. I don't know - but I'm darn curious about it.



                  Looking for the Frost papers:

                  Frost, H. M., Bone remodeling and its relation to metabolic bone diseases, C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1973.

                  Frost, H. M., Bone modeling and skeletal modeling errors, C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1973.
                  Edit/Delete Message


                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                    IF there is something to this dynamic bone remodeling (by applying and maintaining equal pressures on both sides of the vertebra during motion) that results in a more normal shape - well that could be significant to us all.
                    Isn't this close to or exactly the claim of how Spinecor works?

                    I don't want to speculate too far without reading more but maybe this will help towards understanding why some non surgical methods affect some curves in a good way (but not others) .. possibly something to do with the many variations there may be in curvatude combined with the many variations there be in applying and maintaining equal pressures during motion. I don't know - but I'm darn curious about it.

                    Some here have said they were specifically told never to do torso rotational exercises as that would exacerbate the curves. Now. At this point, it would be nice to know why they were told that and what the evidence is for torso rotation making curves worse.


                    Looking for the Frost papers:

                    Frost, H. M., Bone remodeling and its relation to metabolic bone diseases, C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1973.

                    Frost, H. M., Bone modeling and skeletal modeling errors, C. Thomas, Springfield, IL, 1973.
                    (almost 37 years old)
                    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                    No island of sanity.

                    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                    Answer: Medicine


                    "We are all African."

                    Comment


                    • Dingo -

                      Turns out I'm not looking for papers - I'm looking for books!

                      http://www.amazon.com/Harold-M-Frost...r_dp_pel_pop_1

                      Written by an American orthopedist and surgeon! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Frost

                      Oh my ... won't be getting to the bottom of this one anytime too soon.

                      Sharon - I am curious as hell! And according to Frost - there may be more to "flexation" (applying and maintaining equal pressures on both sides of the vertebra during motion) than rotation, though there is flexation in torso rotation .. this may not be the only way to achieve it. Very interesting (and acknowledged as important) contributions made by Frost. http://www.scangrants.com/grant/2010...tor-award.aspx

                      Frost may have certainly been in the research mix when Riviard and Colliard came up with Spincor. I don't know, but it looks promising

                      You reminded me that I was told (by the orthopedic specialist/surgeon) not to do wide sweeping torso rotation exercises - but was told that exercises involving very short rotational moves, would not hurt. "In general" information from him based upon my curvatude of two.

                      Pam - would still be very interested in reading the paper you referenced :-)
                      Last edited by mamamax; 12-11-2009, 08:10 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tonibunny View Post
                        I was just thinking that - surely it would be easier for smaller curves to be remodelled than larger ones. In which case, torso rotation exercises might be a good choice for people if they manage to catch scoliosis when it's still very mild, but not for those with more serious curves.
                        I would agree with that Tonibunny, and that may be why torso rotation is successful for some. I have more serious curves actually, and was told not to do wide sweeping torso rotation exercises - but that exercises involving short rotation would not hurt. If the torso rotation machine could be adjusted to do very short versions of the norm - would it help someone like me .. I wonder.
                        Last edited by mamamax; 12-11-2009, 08:44 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                          I would agree with that Tonibunny, and that may be why torso rotation is successful for some.
                          But most (~90%) of small curves never become big curves and some resolve completely all with just ice cream therapy or watching and waiting.

                          The challenge with claims about treatments avoiding small curves becoming large curves when treating at the small curve stage will be to see if that ~10% that goes on to surgery territory is reduced by the treatment. And when you are dealing with an inherently variable condition like scoliosis, you will be hard pressed to ever show it.

                          So while it might save a few kids who would have gone on to surgery, you will likely never be able to show it.

                          All these treatments that claim to "cure" most kids at the early stages have to show they are curing more kids over and above the ~90% that wouldn't reach surgery territory no matter what they do or don't do. I think the people who make claims specifically about treating curves when they are small know these odds and are being deliberately deceptive about their "cure" rates.
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • I don't think anyone, here, is claiming cures. But any observed change is certainly worth investigating - the why of the why, so to speak.

                            In speaking of success, I guess, I should clarify that I'm talking about any change for the better.

                            Eventually, we may find - that when one thing works for only a few, that there are answers of some kind in that - by asking what was it those few had in common and how did they differ from others. If that makes any sense? Probably not, I'm multi tasking too many things at the moment.
                            Last edited by mamamax; 12-11-2009, 09:30 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mamamax View Post
                              I don't think anyone, here, is claiming cures.
                              I think people here are claiming cures. I can name a few.

                              But any observed change is certainly worth investigating - the why of the why, so to speak.
                              Yes you need to investigate any change. But you have to have some way of figuring out what caused the change... the treatment or just a spontaneous resolution. Not to beat a dead horse but without large groups of treatment and control patients, you can't hope to know that.

                              In speaking of success, I guess, I should clarify that I'm talking about any change for the better.
                              I define success as a permanent reduction in the curve after treatment ends. All these PT therapies can claim temporary changes... that is not in question.

                              Eventually, we may find - that when one thing works for only a few, that there are answers of some kind in that - by asking what was it those few had in common and how did they differ from others. If that makes any sense? Probably not, I'm multi tasking too many things at the moment.
                              Yes but you have to have some way of showing it. When you are dealing with a very variable condition wherein still only ~10% ever reach surgery no matter what yo do or don't do, that is a very tall order. Any treatment that doesn't show some statistically larger "success" rate than ~90% can't be said to be helping a single person. This is NOT semantics... it is reality.

                              Some people are very fond of saying, "all big curves start out as small curves" implying that you better damn well treat them when they are small to avoid them getting big. But of course that statement implies an unproven assumption that some treatment we have now can stop a small curve from getting large. There is no proof of that. It could be that virtually all kids are treated uselessly prior to fusion. That is a valid conclusion from the data in hand.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oojackapivvy View Post
                                If so, and if it is effective enough, it would be a really good argument at last for campaigning for the re-introduction of screening. As it currently stands, with few places (talking about UK here) offering anything except observation and eventual surgery if required, I eventually reached the conclusion I can't see the point in screening. The traditional figures say that only a small proportion of cases ever get as far as needing treatment, so I can well see the point that all the rigmarole of doctors, xrays, stress, and nothing being done other than comments that it's got a bit worse or that it's stayed the same, is pointless, whereas if something could be offered which allows the potential of stabilisation and even reversal, regular screening to discover curves as early and as small as possible (and then perhaps monitor them periodically with a scoliometer and photography of posture rather than radiation and only xray again if there is a change beyond certain criteria) would become a worthwhile thing.
                                I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense. Basically keep the screening (in a manner of speaking), and apply less invasive monitoring till such point that something else needs to be done. It seems a lot of people have been told their curves would not progress only to be sadly disappointed many years later, a monitoring campaign like yours could avoid that - and maybe even provide a lot of useful information if the monitoring results were fed into an international data base.
                                Last edited by mamamax; 12-11-2009, 10:01 PM.

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