Setting the Record Straight

[Pooka1]

Reviewing the website was interesting to me and i think it looks promising (maybe even one day down the road for adults).

I found the link below regarding some information - BlueCross BlueShield of Wisconsin (from 2007).

What is the translation?

http://www2.bluecrosswisconsin.com/p..._stapling.html

That is stale. I only looked at links that were up to date. Still I found none that failed to refer to VBS as "investigational" or similar.

For now, I think it is still considered experimental surgery though I suspect that will change soon.

[mamamax]

That is stale. I only looked at links that were up to date. Still I found none that failed to refer to VBS as "investigational" or similar.

For now, I think it is still considered experimental surgery though I suspect that will change soon.

True 2007 - a little stale. I kept looking. Found this from 2009 (saying the same thing as 2007):

Medical Policy Update The following Anth...
Mar 31, 2009 ... of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association. ® ANTHEM i...
http://www.anthem.com/provider/noapp.../pw_b130545.pd...

Seems to vary from state to state in the US?

[Pooka1]

True 2007 - a little stale. I kept looking. Found this from 2009 (saying the same thing as 2007):

Medical Policy Update The following Anth...
Mar 31, 2009 ... of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association. ® ANTHEM i...
http://www.anthem.com/provider/noapp.../pw_b130545.pd...

Seems to vary from state to state in the US?

Yes that is one of the sites I referred to in re several how insurance companies still consider VBS investigational now.

[mariaf]

Just to update the info on which insurance companies have covered VBS, I want to add two more. I'm told that Tufts Health Plan covered the procedure in Boston, MA. Also Healthnet HMO covered the procedure in CA.

[Pooka1]

No response from O'Brien

Maybe he didn't see this so I'm posting this...

Hi Sharon,

While I understand how you could think there was a misunderstanding, I can assure you we were quite clear with our request with respect to adding a link.

That said, if you are correct - and Joe DID misunderstand us, it could be easily corrected by his adding the link to the VBS site now

Maria posted this on 12 June 2009.

I can't find either a link to the VBS site or an explanation of why it wasn't added to this site.

Assuming he read this thread (and we don't know if he did or not), I conclude there is some reason that O'Brien does not want to add the link. Further, he doesn't want to say what the reason is. I agree with Maria there can be no misunderstanding at this point. Thus it is very awkward at this point and brings up questions of intellectual honesty.

I suspect it is his commitment to conservative treatments irrespective of the relative evidence level of those vice VBS. At this point, it is reasonable to suggest there is more positive evidence for VBS in just a few short years than for all the conservative treatments combined going back decades on that.

Anyone else have a guess why he neither will post the link nor explain why he won't?

[mariaf]

Anyone else have a guess why he neither will post the link nor explain why he won't?

I think you nailed it, Sharon (in your post above). Well said.

[mamamax]

He may be researching it himself personally? Seems Joe does do such things. Just my 2 cents.

[Pooka1]

He may be researching it himself personally? Seems Joe does do such things. Just my 2 cents.

I'm going to have to buzz you on that. Not even a little bit possible/credible.

Scoliosis is his game. If he hasn't researched VBS by now then scoliosis isn't his game (which it is).

By the way, how long do you think he would need to research VBS in order to make a decision? How many days? Weeks? Months? Years? Decades? Centuries? Millenia? Geological deep time periods?

And even if you were correct, he could have jumped back on here at any point since Maria has been asking him to post the link (which is measured in years at this point I think) and said he hasn't had the chance to research it (which is of course unbelievable).

Rather he posted some obfuscatory/obscurantist stuff upthread. Please review those posts.

Care to try again?

[Pooka1]

I think you nailed it, Sharon (in your post above). Well said.

He seems to be a man of faith, not evidence.

Faith in conservative treatments as against evidence for non-fusion (and possibly fusion) surgery.

I suggest that is no way to approach a serious medical issue (if that is indeed his approach).

I hope I'm wrong but that's how it's shaping up (if he has seen the thread and I assume he has because he started it).

[mamamax]

Well you know, i did read all the postings .. just giving him the benefit of the doubt. We do know he does his own research (Schroth, Spinecor, etc) - so maybe he is looking into VBS also. As to why he hasn't answered further - i dunno .. maybe he thinks he's answered the question - I'll go back and re-read his postings.

[Pooka1]

Well you know, i did read all the postings .. just giving him the benefit of the doubt. We do know he does his own research (Schroth, Spinecor, etc) - so maybe he is looking into VBS also. As to why he hasn't answered further - i dunno .. maybe he thinks he's answered the question - I'll go back and re-read his postings.

A third grader to tell you he has not.

[mamamax]

A third grader to tell you he has not.

Do you mean - a third grader could tell me he has not?

Anyway - who knows Sharon. There is a number to call.

Hey - I found two horses with scoliosis (bty).

[Pooka1]

Do you mean - a third grader could tell me he has not?

Ya think?

Anyway - who knows Sharon.

The third grader.

Hey - I found two horses with scoliosis (bty).

By amazing coincidence, in the recent issue of one of my horse rags is an article on horse scoliosis. I have ridden dozens and dozens of horse and encountered plenty more and never ran into one with scoliosis. Nor have I ever heard of a horse with scoliosis. I suggest it is exquisitely rare.

There is congenital and acquired in horses. I'm thinking the acquired has got to be due to a fall of some sort and subsequent injury. I think ill-fitting tack can be ruled out and even crooked riders.

[txmarinemom]

Hey, I have no first hand knowledge of any of this but I don't understand why O'Brien is singling out VBS from other treatment modalities in terms of entries on the links page. What could be the motivation for not linking to a VBS site versus linking to other treatment modality sites?

Is it possible he didn't understand you wanted a link on the links page?

Would it be the only link to experimental surgery? Might he not want to set a precedent?

If not then what is the reason?

This all sounds very strange with a high chance of misunderstanding.

Sharon,

I was the one initially corresponding with JO'B, and have all the emails where he did say he'd link to vertebralstapling.com. If you'd like to see them (or anyone, for that matter), email me.

It was NOT a misunderstanding.

Someone slow down the love slaves before they hit Texas, please ...

[txmarinemom]

It seems to me that if a link was made to your VBS forum, it would be somewhat of an endorsement by the NSF of that procedure. It is certainly within their rights and duty to not endorse an experimental procedure until there are somewhat longterm studies associated with their safety and effectiveness. I actually agree with Mr. O'Brien's actions here. In fact, there could be legal ramifications in the future if he were to link to a site, in effect endorsing it, and then having it turn out to have problems associated with that surgery in the future.

And in 90+ years, Schroth is proven? They are blasted all over the home page here.

Legal ramifications???

For providing info??? You, of all people, are constantly saying people should be aware of non-surgical alt tretaments. Babe, VBS isn't alt ... it's just a tad too ~icky~ for some. It isn't fusion, and it has a HELL of a lot better record than Spinecor OR Schroth. This site refuses to even post the current parameters and corollaries for VBS.

If I were Betz, I'd cut ties with NSF for talking out of both sides ... but that's just me.

I suppose the crushed hopes provided by Schroth and Spinecor (Joe's supported treatment choices) are more kind ...?