Clear Institute vs. Schroth Method

[Pooka1]

If I had 10 years to wait for the clinical study I would, but my son is growing right now.

You need to consider that either the clinical study has been done and it has been ruled out or there is reason to believe a clinical study would be a waste of time. For example, we don't have to do a study on whether the Grand Canyon was formed in a catastrophic flood within the last 6,000 years because we already have ruled out that mechanism and that date though other evidence.

I'm not saying that is the case but I am guessing you haven't considered that.

Can we conclude exercise doesn't fix curves after all this time?

Conclusively? No, because folks may be completely inept at documenting it to date or the magic exercises haven't been discovered yet.

Practically? Yes.

You, like mamamax, are thinking emotionally. Communication is impossible.

[Dingo]

your mind is closed

Pooka1

because folks may be completely inept at documenting it to date or the magic exercises haven't been discovered yet.

You are operating with your own set of facts from a decade ago or more.

February 2003 -The Role of Measured Resistance Exercises in Adolescent Scoliosis

2006 - Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).

March 2007 - Exercise for managing adolescent scoliosis

July 2008 - Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.

Another study should be starting soon in Texas.

Every one of these studies produced better outcomes than any bracing study I'm aware of. Why might this therapy work?

Trunk rotational strength asymmetry in adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis: an observational study

Science didn't stop in the year 2000.

It will be a bright day if science ultimately proves that most children can avoid years of bracing or a lifetime of fusion with just 30 minutes of exercise per week. Three studies plus anecdotal evidence gives me optimism.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1



You are operating with your own set of facts from a decade ago or more.

February 2003 -The Role of Measured Resistance Exercises in Adolescent Scoliosis

2006 - Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).

March 2007 - Exercise for managing adolescent scoliosis

July 2008 - Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.

Another study starting soon in Texas.

Why might this therapy work?

Trunk rotational strength asymmetry in adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis: an observational study

Science didn't stop in the year 2000.

I was not referring to only pre-2000 evidence.

If we have exercise documented as an effective and permanent treatment for scoliosis, why hasn't this "fact" penetrated medical schools and treatment protocols? Why don't these people have the Nobel in physiology/medicine for obviating fusion surgery?

I can tell you, if exercise does not produce a permanent reduction, if you lose all ground if you become sick and can't exercise, and if you have to exercise for 4 hours a day, every day, for YEARS to see any measurable reduction in curves, that is no solution. You might as well tell people they have to live their life in zero gravity.

[Dingo]

30 minutes per week

Pooka1

I can tell you, if exercise does not produce a permanent reduction, if you lose all ground if you become sick and can't exercise, and if you have to exercise for 4 hours a day, every day, for YEARS to see any measurable reduction in curves, that is no solution. You might as well tell people they have to live their life in zero gravity.

Mooney found that it takes just 30 minutes per week and as near as I can tell only until skeletal maturity.

You are purposely being negative in the hopes of discouraging parents and children.

Why don't these people have the Nobel in physiology/medicine for obviating fusion surgery?

Perhaps 10 studies from now they will.

Dr. Marshall and Warren battled the medical establishment for years before the scientific community would accept the obvious truth that ulcers were caused by a common bacterial infection. In 2005 they won the Nobel prize for medicine. Check out this timeline.

As far back as 1875 two German scientists suspected that ulcers were caused by bacteria.

In 1968 a scientist in Europe was fined for treating ulcers with antibiotics.

Science is slow.

[mamandcrm]

Quote from Pooka1: "I think just in this thread you have folks "concluding" that balance problems not only are associated in a causal way with scoliosis but pursuing "treatments" to improve balance thinking that will improve the scoliosis."


If you are referring to me, I'm not concluding anything. I'm interested in having my kid do the balance exercise for core strength while she wears her full-time brace. Have no idea if it would help her curve and haven't given it a thought, it's muscle atrophy that I am concerned with.

[Pooka1]

You are purposely being negative in the hopes of discouraging parents and children.

This is irrational. If folks need to be discouraged it's driven by a lack of evidence, not a random whim on the part of a random person for some unknown reason.

But it you can portray it as some nefarious motive then that takes the spotlight off the (lack of) evidence.

It's hard to believe you are serious at times.

[Pooka1]

Quote from Pooka1: "I think just in this thread you have folks "concluding" that balance problems not only are associated in a causal way with scoliosis but pursuing "treatments" to improve balance thinking that will improve the scoliosis."


If you are referring to me, I'm not concluding anything. I'm interested in having my kid do the balance exercise for core strength while she wears her full-time brace. Have no idea if it would help her curve and haven't given it a thought, it's muscle atrophy that I am concerned with.

That is rational. Other claims are clearly not rational.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1
Mooney found that it takes just 30 minutes per week and as near as I can tell only until skeletal maturity.

What is the claim?

That 30 minutes a day for how long will prevent fusion surgery for every kid? For some kids? For a few kids?

Why are kids still being fused and not sent to PT immediately to avoid fusion?

What is the claim?

[Dingo]

read the study yourself

Pooka1

What is the claim?

I provided several links. Read the studies yourself.

[Pooka1]

I provided several links. Read the studies yourself.

If our surgeon hasn't mentioned any of it by now, do I really have to read them? Are all the surgeons completely incompetent in your opinion? Do they all ignore relevant literature IN THEIR OWN FIELD???

How many of the studies that you post do you think will pan out? Few? Some? Many?

[MissEmmyF]

Dingo

i really enjoy reading all your posts...since you seem to be the first person to bring up the balance board, i have a question for you...this may be dumb, but how exactly are you supposed to use the balance board? just stand in the middle of it and try to balance while standing up straight without falling off? are you supposed to have your knees bent at all, etc.? what do you think is an adequate amount of time to use it over the period of a week (i.e. once a day for 15 min.)? seems like a cool idea for sure...would def. help to strengthen all core muscles! thanks.

[MissEmmyF]

If our surgeon hasn't mentioned any of it by now, do I really have to read them? Are all the surgeons completely incompetent in your opinion? Do they all ignore relevant literature IN THEIR OWN FIELD???

surgeons are trained in SURGERY

[Pooka1]

surgeons are trained in SURGERY

So I guess our surgeon is "moonlighting" in knowing the bracing literature COLD.

Do you really think these guys don't keep up on all proposed treatments and not just surgery?

ETA: If there was a non-surgical permanent treatment then it would be MALPRACTICE to fuse people. And yet these guys are still walking around loose in the community. Your explanation would be....?

[hope404]

where I'm at

Pooka1...

hate to bore anyone, but will try to explain where I'm at with scoliosis..it will explain why I have interest in Dingo's proactive nature and FixScoliosis's bravery in daring to try NEW ideas.

-my daughter too old for brace to do anything
-curves too small for surgery
OPTIONS-----ZERO
or

try things that have not been tested or studied(CAN'T HURT, MAY NOT HELP,
MIGHT HELP)

Literally, daily, think about Scoliosis ,and what causes the muscles to over operate on one side and under operate on the other (this is MY idea of what is going on...may be totally off

(excuse my use of lay terms))

But my own hypothesis is that her brain does not know where she is in space,
or/and she has a slight developmental delay in which some of her postural reflexes have not integrated full and are continuing to fire off muscles asymetrically. And/or vestibular, proprioceptive, kinesthetic sense, are all not developed fully...thus causing her brain to incorrectly fire the muscles on the sides of the spine.

Do I think a balance board will correct her scoliosis.....NO!

But I do think an Occupational Therapist who specializes in Developmental OT may be able to perscribe some activities(balance board may be one of 'em) that would be simple and easy to do at home....MAY IMPROVE the areas I mentioned above...which in turn MAY get her brain to sense CORRECTLY where she is and slowly start firing the muscles more correctly as these areas(mentioned above) improve.

That is where I am at ...

Will any of my ideas be helpful to my daughter ... probably not ...but to try nothing makes no sense to me. As an OT, I see too many developmental issues with my scoliosis daughter compared to her other siblings...she 100% has some of the issues mentioned above ...I want them improved and then I'll see if they do relate to the scoliosis.

[MissEmmyF]

So I guess our surgeon is "moonlighting" in knowing the bracing literature COLD.

i don't really know anything about bracing, so i'm not going to comment on that.

Do you really think these guys don't keep up on all proposed treatments and not just surgery?

maybe they try to keep up on all proposed treatments; i'm sure some are better than others. but mainly, i think they know the most about surgery and way less about alternative treatments...because that's their profession.

ETA: If there was a non-surgical permanent treatment then it would be MALPRACTICE to fuse people. And yet these guys are still walking around loose in the community. Your explanation would be....?

no one is saying there is a non-surgical permanent treatment for scoliosis - especially in skeleturally mature adults with significant curves. all this thread is talking about is alternative treatments that MAY be helpful and definitely not harmful to scoliosis.