Clear Institute vs. Schroth Method

[Dingo]

misunderstanding

LindaRacine

I've never met a scientist who didn't speak carefully. However I think you might have misunderstood the study or maybe what Dr. Asher said. Clearly I wasn't there so I can't know for sure.

From the abstract:

Patients received a 4-month supervised followed by a 4-month home trunk rotational strength training program.

For patients with 20 to 40-degree curves, survivorship from main curve progression of >or=6 degrees was 100% (wow) at 8 months, but decreased to 64% at 24 months.

I've never read a bracing study that found 100% success for 20 to 40 degree curves. I'm going to get the full study and I'm fairly sure that many children had a reduction in their curve.

It appeared to help stabilize curves in the 20 to 40-degree ranges for 8 months, but not for 24 months. Periodic additional supervised strength training may help the technique to remain effective, although additional experimentation will be necessary to determine this.

The researchers only worked with the children for 8 months during which time their curves were stable. When the researchers followed up at 24 months and measured their curves a third of the children had progression. This suggests that training has to continue until skeletal maturity for the therapy to remain effective. 8 months of training does not cure a child's Scoliosis. I would imagine that whatever muscle asymmetry was present before training finds a way to slowly come back if training is stopped.

If this therapy required an hour of powerlifting a day that might be too much burden for many kids. But it's only 20 to 30 minutes a week. Most people could and SHOULD exercise that much for the rest of their life let alone until their spine is done growing.

[mamamax]

Most people could and SHOULD exercise that much for the rest of their life let alone until their spine is done growing.

Bingo - Dingo. Exercise is without a doubt good for scoliosis - also true that the wrong exercise can worsen the condition (based on case studies provided by Schroth) .. the trick is to find the right exercises. I'm fond of bringing up Martha Hawes when it comes to evidence of such things in adults. She has two curves (considered structural) that she reduced 40 & 50% through exercise and osteopathic manipulation (same range of reduction that she would have found with surgery - generally speaking). Just finished reading her personal memoir, and she has maintained the reduction through one (1) hour of exercise daily .. a Surgeon General recommendations for everyone. SEAS in Italy, and Schroth in Germany (recognized there for over 40 years) ... how much more evidence do we need that there is something to it? Long term studies .. these do not exist for many things, including the most recent surgical techniques. Meanwhile, i've read enough short term studies to feel confident about my treatment (Spinecor and Schroth). Always look forward to your posts - very informative.

[txmarinemom]

WHAT!? a biblical reference? I am shocked, stunned, amazed, awed. . .

LMAO, it's ref #2 if you count the Virgin Mary quip she lifted from me .

Then again, that one could also be classed as a chiro ref ...

[Pooka1]

Maybe everything is reducible to a chiro reference...

[txmarinemom]

Maybe everything is reducible to a chiro reference...

Heh. You may be onto something there ...

I believe it's possible I could entertain myself for at least a few days trying to do so, while simultaneously driving everyone around me insane ...

Sometimes it's the little things in life ;-).

[Pooka1]

Sometimes it's the little things in life ;-).

Like Syrian hamsters?

[Dingo]

mamamax

Thanks Mamamax,

Martha Hawes is a hero! I wouldn't have thought it possible to reduce a curve after skeletal maturity with nothing more than physical therapy. Good for her, and doubly good for her for writing it down!

Anyone attempting to discourage sick children from participating in clinically proven strength training or exercise therapy has a very black heart.

[Qikdraw]

Anyone attempting to discourage sick children from participating in clinically proven strength training or exercise therapy has a very black heart.

There is no need to make personal attacks on people that disagree with you.

Its not even that they disagree its that they are questioning the 'clinically proven' reports. Questioning leads to more information about it. Following the children for 8 months or even two years is simply not enough. Check again at 5 years, 10 years, 15 years and see how they are doing, you look at long term effects as well as short term.

Why are some people skeptical? Cause there are some pretty wild claims out there. I once had a chiropracter tell me he could have fixed me without surgery. Look at my preop xray and tell me he isn't full of crap on that. There ARE people out there who will make wild claims to make money off of people.

No one has said that this stuff won't help some people. If you're in pain, and strength training will work for you, then go for it! No one has said different.

One thing that is a valid concern is what happens if you are no longer able to do the exercises? (for whatever reason) Will it get worse or stay the same? Its also been mentioned that if all you are doing is delaying surgery, by however many years, the longer you wait the more dangerous it can be. This is not an attack on strength training, but perfectly valid issues to look at. Just like you look at the pros and cons of surgery, so should you look at the pros and cons of other methods. What I find dangerous is people attacking others that try and look at the cons of strength training, its a concerted effort to quash research in a forum that is all about information.

[MissEmmyF]

Its also been mentioned that if all you are doing is delaying surgery, by however many years, the longer you wait the more dangerous it can be.

Sometimes I wonder how true this is. I'm not saying I disagree because obviously everyone's case is unique - I just think unless you're progressing extremely quickly and definitely need to get the surgery done ASAP (or if you're in a great deal of pain), strength training/exercising can only be helping your back in the interim (assuming you're doing the appropriate exercises and not detrimental ones) - if you do indeed end up needing to get surgery down the road, your back will be in the best shape possible to deal with the rigors of the surgery. Not to mention, if you're able to make exercise work well enough for you to avoid surgery for at least a bunch of years, techniques are constantly improving, research is always being done, etc. So, perhaps the invasiveness of the surgery and the recovery time will be diminished in the future.

[concerned dad]

Dingo, I love your posts. I look forward to reading your well thought out and well cited comments. You bring a fresh perspective to the issues and come up with stuff no one here has thought of (or at least shared publicly) before.
But…..

Anyone attempting to discourage sick children from participating in clinically proven strength training or exercise therapy has a very black heart.

Those are pretty strong words Dingo. Questionable treatments for scoliosis have been around for a long time as evidenced by the following discussion of Hippocrates and scoliosis:

Hippocrates refers to the ethical issues arising from the use of methods of reduction. He warns patients against charlatans and incompetent practitioners who not only demonstrate treatment methods to impress their audience but also use such forcible maneuvers for harm and not for healing: "Wherefore succussion on a ladder has never straightened anybody, as far as I know, but it is principally practiced by those physicians who seek to astonish the mob- for to such persons these things appears wonderful. For example, if they see a man suspended or thrown down, or the like; and they always extol such practices, and never give themselves any concern whatever may result from the experiment, whether bad or good. But the physicians who follow such practices, as far as I have known them, are all stupid".

I’m not referring to ANY particular treatment, whether exercise, bracing or surgery with my comments here, just scoliosis treatment in general. There has to be a balance between “discourage sick children” and rationale thought and evidence. I am not aware of any (emphasis added) “clinically proven strength training or exercise therapy” for scoliosis. Proof is a difficult thing to come by with scoliosis treatment. I think you are referring to evidence.

With all the variables involved with Scoliosis, it is incredibly difficult to prove anything. There is a relevant comment by the author of Sharons often mentioned “most research is false” paper: “Scientific investigation is the noblest pursuit. I think we can improve the respect of the public for researchers by showing how difficult success is". Success, to me, in this context is proof. Gathering evidence is necessary, ‘noble’ and worthwhile. But the proof is in the pudding.

There is a comment on the "other" scoliosis forum () by Dr Lori Dolan about the topic of conservative treatments that I think is pretty good:

I commend the dedication of these clinicians to conservative treatment and I look forward to reading results of large-scale controlled trials from their institutions. We need as many people as possible working on this question in order to build a solid body of evidence.

I think that the evidence vs proof issue is what underlies many of the disagreements on this forum.

Having said all that, I think there is too much ‘pounding’ away at the lack of evidence, or the quality of the evidence, for the conservative treatments. Folks considering conservative treatments really should be aware of the state of the evidence (so they are not taken advantage of). However, continuously arguing the merits of the evidence here probably does more harm than good (although maybe in the research forum we can dig into the details). Maybe the solution is a well worded “sticky post” on the top of the alternative treatment forum.

[Qikdraw]

Sometimes I wonder how true this is. I'm not saying I disagree because obviously everyone's case is unique - I just think unless you're progressing extremely quickly and definitely need to get the surgery done ASAP (or if you're in a great deal of pain), strength training/exercising can only be helping your back in the interim (assuming you're doing the appropriate exercises and not detrimental ones) - if you do indeed end up needing to get surgery down the road, your back will be in the best shape possible to deal with the rigors of the surgery. Not to mention, if you're able to make exercise work well enough for you to avoid surgery for at least a bunch of years, techniques are constantly improving, research is always being done, etc. So, perhaps the invasiveness of the surgery and the recovery time will be diminished in the future.

You make some very valid points and I certainly hope things change for the better for surgery in the future. I certainly do not want others to go through what I've been through.

I think though that the dangers in surgery as you get older have less to do with scoliosis than with other body issues. As you get older it just takes longer to heal from some things, maybe you have heart problems or something else that may complicate the surgery, although as you say hopefully if you've exercised you're in fairly good health. But there are those unknowns that may complicate things in the future.

Thats my take on it anyway.

[Dingo]

I stand by that statement.

Anyone attempting to discourage sick children from participating in clinically proven strength training or exercise therapy has a very black heart.

If anyone has information or evidence that a particular treatment does or doesn't work I want to read it. I'm just as eager to read people's opinions or anecdotal evidence both pro and con.

However when people troll or throw up random, made-up flack in an effort to discourage children and parents I'm going to call it like it is.

[concerned dad]

Fair enough Dingo, but I think this is not the place to discuss it (and I am guessing you would agree)

Here folks, who have decided to go that route, want to look for support and shared experience.

We can argue the merits of the evidence in the research forum.

[Dingo]

arguing

concerned dad

We can argue the merits of the evidence in the research forum.

I definitely DON'T want to argue with anyone. I come here with the specific goal of learning so that I can help my son and passing on what I've learned so that other kids can benefit.

I'd happily lose every argument for the rest of my life if I could trade that for a straight spine for my son.

[hope404]

Ditto!!!!

Dingo,

Alls I can say to that is AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!