Clear Institute vs. Schroth Method

[Dingo]

trainwreck

Ok, let's admit it this thread is a trainwreck.

This girl had an opinion and I don't think her integrity should have been questioned for expressing it. I'm not saying that her science is correct but she is probably a good person trying to help other kids. Instead of making a video about her brace she could have spent the time watching American Idol like most people. I give this girl a thumbs up for using her time in a positive manner.

Disclaimer: I'm not a fan of spinecor or chiropractors. However recent personal experience with my son has made me a strong believer in THIS. If Mooney turns out to be right it's a human tragedy. Millions of children have been braced and fused when 30 minutes of weekly exercise could have stopped and even reversed their curves.

[leahdragonfly]

Hi Dingo,

More power to you if you think the strength training can help your son. Seems like it can't hurt. BUT, I read the attached article carefully, which has a tiny sample size of just 20 kids. About 4 were skeletally mature, and several had 10-11 degree curves, which all have a very low chance of progressing, statistically speaking. The authors made some grand claims, but if you actually study their table, only about 7 of the kids had large enough changes in their curves to really qualify as reductions. The rest were changes of under 5 degrees, which we should all know is within the 5-10 degree margin of measurement error. Also, there is no reported follow-up on any of the kids, so who knows what happened to their curves a few months or years later, or when the training was stopped.

Also, why were none of these kids braced?? Was it because they had non-progressing curves to begin with?

So, just my two cents worth...I can't help but analyze research articles with a critical eye after taking epidemiology and statistics. Be careful what you believe about research articles.

Regards,

[Dingo]

The Mooney Study

leahdragonfly

So, just my two cents worth...I can't help but analyze research articles with a critical eye after taking epidemiology and statistics. Be careful what you believe about research articles.

My son is too young to use a torso rotation machine or do back extensions so I found two replacements plus we do stretching at night. All I can say is that I am stunned by the improvement. Unless my son is an aberration (which is possible) this definitely works for Juveniles. We started doing this about 10 days before my son's recheck and didn't even mention it to his doctor. About a week ago my wife and I realized it might be having a visible impact. Tonight no matter which angle I pick my son's rotation has diminished. I don't know what to say other than I am stunned. I am keeping a daily exercise diary. If my son's next recheck shows the improvement I expect I'm going to send my simple, daily regimine off to Mooney and the other scientists involved in these studies. They need to realize that with a few modification their concepts work for Juveniles as well.

Mooney's study was followed up by two other studies that produced the same results.

Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).

Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.

According to this hard to read scan of a report therapists in New Zealand tried the same thing and once again produced the same results.

I've heard through the grapevine that another study is starting up in Texas.

Somebody wrote Mooney about the long term effects of his therapy and this is his reponse.

Gerbo: Similarly to what i asked a year ago, are you still following your initial study group and has stabilisation been maintained?

Mooney: I have followed some and stabilization has been maintained.

[Pooka1]

Dr. Marc Asher's interest in torso rotaional exercises was mentioned in one of those links.

He is second author on a 2008 article on this subject...

2008 Trunk rotation pilot study

Journal of Spinal Disorders & Techniques:
July 2008 - Volume 21 - Issue 5 - pp 349-358

Treatment of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis With Quantified Trunk Rotational Strength Training: A Pilot Study
McIntire, Kevin L. PhD; Asher, Marc A. MD; Burton, Douglas C. MD; Liu, Wen PhD

Conclusions: Quantified trunk rotational strength training significantly increased strength. It was not effective for curves measuring 50 to 60 degrees. It appeared to help stabilize curves in the 20 to 40-degree ranges for 8 months, but not for 24 months. Periodic additional supervised strength training may help the technique to remain effective, although additional experimentation will be necessary to determine this.

[LindaRacine]

Hi Sharon...

Dr. Asher has essentially confirmed to me that he doesn't feel this treatment can change the natural history of scoliosis.

I think there has to be a reason why the folks like Weiss and Mooney have never published long-term followup studies.

Regards,
Linda

[LindaRacine]

I want to be clear on my take regarding rotational exercises, as well as the rest of the conservative scoliosis treatments discussed in this thread.

1) I think that some of these treatments may, like bracing, hold skeletally immature kids' curves well enough to allow them to avoid surgery. However, we need to see random, controlled studies, with long-term follow up, to be certain.

2) Conservative treatments may help skeletally mature patients reduce their pain, as well as look better. However, these treatments will not provide long-term results unless the treatment is continued for one's lifespan. If the treatment cannot be continued for one's lifespan, they risk eventually having to have surgery. Since the risk of complications increases with age, these patients may not be doing themselves any favors.

Regards,
Linda

[Dingo]

Dr. Asher says it doesn't work?

LindaRacine

Dr. Asher has essentially confirmed to me that he doesn't feel this treatment can change the natural history of scoliosis.

I find that difficult to believe. Mark Asher published two rotation studies that found it was an effective treatment. You are suggesting that Dr. Asher published 2 recent studies on the same topic that he doesn't agree with.

2006 Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).

July 2008 - Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.

If you have information from Dr. Asher please post it.

[Pooka1]

Hi Sharon...

Dr. Asher has essentially confirmed to me that he doesn't feel this treatment can change the natural history of scoliosis.

I think there has to be a reason why the folks like Weiss and Mooney have never published long-term followup studies.

Regards,
Linda

I am very jealous of how you know all these surgeons on a personal basis!

[Pooka1]

LindaRacine



I find that difficult to believe. Mark Asher published two rotation studies that found it was an effective treatment. You are suggesting that Dr. Asher published 2 recent studies on the same topic that he doesn't agree with.

2006 Trunk rotational strength training for the management of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis (AIS).

July 2008 - Treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis with quantified trunk rotational strength training: a pilot study.

If you have information from Dr. Asher please post it.

Did you read the July 2008 paper? I just posted the conclusions from it a few posts up.

There's your answer as to why his interest in torso rotational exercises might be flagging.

Also, not sure why he would lie to Linda about it.

[Dingo]

the study

Pooka1

Did you read the July 2008 paper? I just posted the conclusions from it a few posts up.

There's your answer as to why his interest in torso rotational exercises might be flagging.

I've read the abstract, what did you think you read?

Why would you say that interest is flagging? One study was completed in 2008 and another study is starting in Texas right now. Other studies may be taking place for all I know.

Also, not sure why he would lie to Linda about it.

LindaRacine may have some useful information from Dr. Asher and I look forward to reading it. Evidently he doesn't agree with the 2 recent studies that he published.

[Pooka1]

I've read the abstract, what did you think you read?

Why would you say that interest is flagging? One study was completed in 2008 and another study is starting in Texas right now.

Let's put it this way... I don't know how they are getting funding for further work based on the 2008 conclusions.

[Dingo]

Why so

Pooka1

Let's put it this way... I don't know how they are getting funding for further work based on the 2008 conclusions.

I think everyone has read the abstract. Why do you happen to feel that way?

[PNUTTRO]

I'd just like to know how many chiros can pass through the eye of a needle.

WHAT!? a biblical reference? I am shocked, stunned, amazed, awed. . .

[Pooka1]

WHAT!? a biblical reference? I am shocked, stunned, amazed, awed. . .

I prefer to think of it as a chiro reference if you don't mind.

[LindaRacine]

Dingo...

I asked Dr. Asher if he felt that the rotational exercise treatment would change the natural history (i.e., permanently reduce curves). His response was that they were very careful in their wording. I took that evasive reply to mean that the fact that the correction wasn't holding at 24 months was telling.

Sharon...

I've been to many of the SRS meetings (as well as other spine conferences) in the last 15-16 years. I actually got to know Dr. Asher when he hosted the "Harrington Spine Symposium" in Kansas City in 2005. I was really interested in the Harrington Archives, which are located at KU, so we spent some time talking about some of the pieces. I've also been friendly for some years, with the woman who was Dr. Asher's nurse.

Regards,
Linda