Got approved for Schroth!

[Pooka1]

Another complaint thread about this NYC chiro group

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10201

These guys have no shame. They aren't trying to help. They are trying to get rich off desperate people.

[rohrer01]

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10201

These guys have no shame. They aren't trying to help. They are trying to get rich off desperate people.

I can attest to the fact that there ARE desperate people out there, including me, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I'm looking for solutions that the surgeon can't/won't give. I live in chronic pain and don't want to be on drugs. What options do people like me have, really? These situations drive people to desperation. It's too bad that this supposed doctor did this to that poor girl and charged her parents so much money besides. I think this guy is still using these methods, though. Just not with that doctor. Although I could be wrong.

[Pooka1]

I can attest to the fact that there ARE desperate people out there, including me, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I'm looking for solutions that the surgeon can't/won't give. I live in chronic pain and don't want to be on drugs. What options do people like me have, really? These situations drive people to desperation. It's too bad that this supposed doctor did this to that poor girl and charged her parents so much money besides. I think this guy is still using these methods, though. Just not with that doctor. Although I could be wrong.

Yes pain can drive people to try anything. People in this pain state are extremely vulnerable and liable to make bad decisions. (Equally scared parents are driven to make bad decisions unfortunately.) I think more regulation of chiro and maybe even disallowing them to fit orthotics is in order. These guys have ZERO relevant training in scoliosis or orthotics and shouldn't be raking in millions from hapless patients. It's risible.

Spinecor is a special problem within this constellation of chiro problems. The great run of legitimate doctors (i.e., orthopedic surgeons) do not use the brace for whatever reason (first-hand viewing of lack of efficacy, suspicion of bad data in the positive Spinecor papers, existence of studies showing no efficacy, etc,. etc.). Because of this, Spinecor has turned to chiros to push the brace. There is an obvious liability in doing this and it can be seen in the now two complaint threads about this NYC clinic hawking this brace.

I wish there was evidence of efficacy so surgeons would prescribe Spinecor and thereby get the brace out of the unschooled and nefarious hands of chiros who should NOT be treating scoliosis FULL STOP. Why can't they be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license I wonder?

Last, there is a web site with comments from chiro school students. These are actual students talking about the schools. I suggest it is IMPOSSIBLE for a rational person to ever go to a chiro for anything after reading that. That said, they occasionally get an able person. I continue to be impressed by Morningstar who is explicitly an evidence-based chiro. He should have gone to medical school. The rest might as well be singing.

[jrnyc]

hey rohr
i am on pain meds...for several years, now..i would have had to leave work even earlier if not..as it is i left work sooner than i wanted to, and took a big pension cut in the process...but the pain was too much to work the job(s) i had...5 flights of stairs (no elevator) all day didnt help, either...and the fact that i took my work seriously...well, there were those in the NYC DOE who told me to take it easy and slide...but i couldnt..being a social worker to disturbed kids was something i took very seriously...couldnt do it half-as-ed, either...

i would not survive without pain meds..life would be truly unlivable! so i deal with the side effects, consider surgery, and make the best of it...i'd rather do that than waste money on some doctor or pseudo doctor who offers to help while taking money for nothing...

everyone does what they have to do, so i try not to judge anyone's choices...i just try to make the best of a bad situation...a situation that has been slowly worsening over the years...

i hope you find some answers that help your situation...

jess

[Back-out]

pooka

The rest might as well be singing.

Hey, singing can be VERY helpful! I'm listening to a terrific NPR series on music in the human experience (their "The Nerve" series). Their broadcast on music and spirituality was spectacular. Actually got me to dancing - on the floor (I'd been exercizing). Was much looser afterwards.

pooka, I have a strong feeling that these guys believe in what they're doing. Fabulous Social Psychology research in "Attribution Theory " points to salesmen, almost invariably becoming true believers in what they're hawking, They can't do it otherwise - in terms of charisma and their own self image! People (incredibly?) need to see themselves as decent souls. They draw their lines in the sand, and with greed, the line grows fainter and fainter. But it's there. They have standards!

"D" is a true charismatic. Thank God he didn't found a school of spiritual healing or start an investment scheme. He could have raked in a billion. (Now Madoff did NOT believe in what he was doing...) Hope this doesn't give him any ideas. I think he has sold himself too, on his integrity and product, though.

That said, you are 1000% right about desperation. The pain combined with fear of the surgery, make us half convinced by the time we start to read or talk to them.

More later on how I got enthused about them from information here. Landed on one of "the glowing testimonials" sections and called them, before seeing the "debunking, angry declamations" and by then it was pretty much too late. I was a convert both of "D" and my own need to believe.

We MUST organize the data better. The main Spinecor thread is over 250 pages now (with arond 350K viewings!). A rating system filled out by first-hand users, must accompany their narratives, just as it is done at Amazon, Epinions, VITALS, etc., etc.

[Back-out]

Putting the little crooks in the context of the BIG ones with MDs

There's another problem that makes for ready converts beside those listed above. There IS, sorry, something a bit secretive about the surgeons too - not enough data sharing, and too much ego and MDeityism, to make it pure science. It makes patients more receptive to charlatanism and exploitation from the little medical companies like this one, not recognized (yet) by the BIG BOYS of the healthcare industry.

The more one knows about approval at the top (especially in promoting medical devices and pharmaceuticals) the more one realizes that the "respectable" (insurance-reimbursed) white-coats are just another variety of scam, PRETENDING TO BE EVIDENCE-BASED. Not all, not down the line by any means! - but enough to make what we like to think of a safe system, terrifyingly spotty because of corruption. It starts right in medical school. My God, the Harvard Medical school - typical - is half funded by Big Pharma. There's no way to get an education in "pure science" with such built-in bias. The students only recently demanded and got, a course added to the curriculum, on business and bio-ethics!

No wonder the little guys want to cash in and even feel entitled. Pain and Fear of Death - they're great sellers everywhere. The difference between the accredited and the rogue purveyors and schools, is much fuzzier than the public realizes, though.

Good doctors and honest researchers realize this the most, yet they too find it all frighteningly easy to be seduced by the lure of the (enormous) sums of money changing hands - the easy ways to cash in. There have been fascinating exposes in the NYTimes, about this. My favorite was an article by a first class psychiatrist. He analyzed himself, describing how he had been recruited to represent manufacturers of psychotropics he prescribed. Beginning with simple luncheon dates at his convenience, saying what he thought (he thought) , it turned into a lucrative second job paid by quasi honorariums and perks. He was barely able to see what he had become, until after trying (and failing) to get more complete clinical information, he gave increasingly lukewarm endorsements. He was soon terminated. And liberated, he says.

A few disturbing facts, starting with one I hope I haven't already recounted here:

a) A bill to allow MDs full access to ALL results of clinical trials (not just the ones supporting approved products) has been languishing for years in Congress. It continues to be shot down, even though access to the site would be via restricted Internet. Probably, "they" are afraid there are too many scrupulous doctors out there and/or that that the data would be hacked and released to the public at large.

FWIW, most anti-depressants narrowly, if at all , surpass the effectiveness of the great drug PLACEBO.

b) Likewise, doctors pitch (insurance-reimbursed) medical/surgical products of inadequately demonstrated efficacy and - worse - safety. This is via hugely lucrative testimony and lectures - all under the pretext of sharing unbiased, positive experience in the field. Of them, surgeons do this most of all (and among them, the worst offenders are orthopedic spinal surgeons! Why no barfy emoticon?) .

An example is an artificial disk (which had a much poorer track record than represented). Its primary endorser- spokesperson was a top spinal surgeon who was revealed to have collected at least 1/2 million bucks annually in testimonials, etc. I hope he gets a defective heart valve or pace-maker endorsed by a crooked cardiac colleague! (But insider knowledge surely protects them!)

c) The way drugs are promoted and sold - many, many kickbacks - is unspeakable. But then again, so is their R and D...As I said, clinical trials revealing negative or neutral outcomes (especially after FDA approval - also flawed), are not available outside the industry. When you cherry-pick disclosure, you are left with "facts" which are actually powerful lies.

d) I was disconcerted - no names - when a scandal broke (suspiciously muted) in the NYTimes revealing that 2 of the 3 surgeons I was planning to see in NYC at that point, had just been implicated in a major conflict of interest scam. They'd approved and/or worked with spinal devices in clinical trials, while having large investments in the products.

Kosher? All know the FDA Rules, but they claimed not to know they weren't allowed to play this game. At that point, I just had to hold my nose and proceed. Who else was left? I'm sure many more were involved besides the publicized names in the paper. If unclear, this is a double scam. First, they are supposed to reveal (and be "recused" - the equivalent) from participating in trials of products they own shares in. Second, knowing it was going to be approved, they profited from insider trading. This is contrary to investing (haha) "standards".

Nb. The HSS (Hospital for Special Surgery) has since formulated an official policy of not investing in products they use - actually, something else, something more obvious, referencing this scandal indirectly. It's in their newest literature.

Pooka, the "real" Medical Care establishment itself is corrupt, and, I'm afraid, the US most of all, because it's most profit-driven - supported in the way its over-seen and incentivized. The built-in "moral hazards" are enormous, and, of course, many succumb. The more it happens, the more it happens, because "everyone is doing it" is institutionalized in the minds of practitioners and gov't officials profiting from kick-backs and hush money. US citizens finance most of the R & D, since foreign countries with controlled care delivery systems, protect their citizens (somewhat) more against bad products and also reduce inflated prices through bargaining power at the top. But that part's all well known by now.

Money corrupts, great money corrupts most, blabla, and is the equivalent to power in our society (the original Greek maxim). Money buys influence, respectability, (insurance reimbursement?), and legal wrist slaps for revelations....

And - still more complex - desperate patients themselves, can abet the corruption, but pushing for approval of marginal treatments and devices,. On the one hand, they grasp at straws of hope in unproven remedies, for their suffering and dangerous conditions.

On the other, the same wish to believe, obfuscates their ability to evaluate the benefits of various treatments. Scoliosis is in many ways an ideal "mine canary" since being architectural, at least at end- point, it is easier than most conditions to be studied in measurable units.

But the accompanying pain and its evaluation? How to evaluate that? It's very clear in a post surgical thread, how subjective pain is and how many mediators there are, including PLACEBO.

What (insured) patients are pushing for, is more unsubstantiated approvals - so they pay less for treatments.

Why single out the poor, chiro-businessmen? Their product apparently helps some! What rankles most, is that since their product isn't insurance reimbursed, not well, the clients are out of pocket when disappointed. They feel (and resent) it more when dissatisfied. Meanwhile, (wrongly) approved products don't zap the little guy when they don't work (not counting *wince* parts for spinal surgery ) How many times have we shrugged after being disappointed by a shoddy product sold at inflated prices through a "Legitimate" medical supply house? (Note this is only true of ineffective products, not DANGEROUS ones!)

It's not simple. These chiros "just" want their tiny share of the pie of US Medical Care Corruption. The rest of the bakery has already been sold off full fee.

Not condoning them, just putting them in context.

In a way, I almost see them as scapegoats for a broader rage and frustration. They don't have a big glossy showroom, Pooka. Their scales don't work, they only have one Walmart quality mirror passed from room to room. They're just poor shlepps in a tiny office with nothing to recommend it but its address. There's more, sure (the flights, the expanding business, the pseudo research and testimonials) , but right now, they're small fish who stand out because of the insurance issue. We'd like to think that reflects more real respectability than it does.

Unless they do outright harm - other than theft! - they might as well be selling over-priced shoddy vacuum cleaners using expert sales techniques (in which science is one tool). They believe in their product -- more or less. .

At least, they're little fish until when and if they make enough dough to buy "respectability" and official acceptance. (It's all for sale) Meanwhile, it's not like they're selling defective $200,000 artificial disks approved in backroom deals by crooks with MDs and medical school appointments!

[rohrer01]

Yes, I got taken. There, I said it. No Rx for my pain except an Rx. The scoli docs won't touch me, yet. I guess my mistake drove me one step closer to the O.R. How ironic is that? Maybe I'm just a wuss like everyone thinks.

[Pooka1]

pooka, I have a strong feeling that these guys believe in what they're doing.

So do all manner of nonsense purveyors including flat earthers, alchemists, evolution deniers, etc.

They are all still purveying patent nonsense.

Many people are honestly deluded. It's a reason for pushing counterfactual claims but not an excuse. There can be no excuse to that.

[Pooka1]

A few disturbing facts, starting with one I hope I haven't already recounted here:

(snip)

b) Likewise, doctors pitch (insurance-reimbursed) medical/surgical products of inadequately demonstrated efficacy and - worse - safety. This is via hugely lucrative testimony and lectures - all under the pretext of sharing unbiased, positive experience in the field. Of them, surgeons do this most of all (and among them, the worst offenders are orthopedic spinal surgeons! Why no barfy emoticon?).

Posterior spinal fusion on a kid progressing 5* a month for at least 5 months to go down from a 58* curve to produce a 5* curve where she looks/normal and is adequately demonstrated in my book. You are clearly referring to other procedures in re "inadequately demonstrated efficacy."

An example is an artificial disk (which had a much poorer track record than represented). Its primary endorser- spokesperson was a top spinal surgeon who was revealed to have collected at least 1/2 million bucks annually in testimonials, etc. I hope he gets a defective heart valve or pace-maker endorsed by a crooked cardiac colleague! (But insider knowledge surely protects them!)

That's a good example of your point. But clearly it is impossible to deny that these orthopedic surgeons save lives.

There is plenty wrong with the medical system. That, however, doesn't negate the proven treatments

On the other, the same wish to believe, obfuscates their ability to evaluate the benefits of various treatments. Scoliosis is in many ways an ideal "mine canary" since being architectural, at least at end- point, it is easier than most conditions to be studied in measurable units.

I agree with this.

Why single out the poor, chiro-businessmen?

Because they aren't qualified to be treating other human beings.

It's not simple. These chiros "just" want their tiny share of the pie of US Medical Care Corruption. The rest of the bakery has already been sold off full fee.

Read this...

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=59

Not condoning them, just putting them in context.

Quackery is the context for chiro. Science is the context for medicine. There is no overlap.

[jrnyc]

hey rohr
please dont beat yourself up...when desperate, people can do all kinds of things they wouldnt do otherwise!

i dont worry about the meds...too much pain without them...the times i've quit, cold, that's all that's happened to me...just an incredible increase of back pain...no chills, no sweats, no shakes, nothing else...but that's just me...

as i said, it would be too painful without them, so for now, that is what i do...maybe in the future i will do something else...like surgery...but that is sure no guarantee i'd be free of pain!! i'm not pain free now...the meds take the edge off, so i can stop grinding my teeth...they certainly dont get rid of all the pain!

hope you feel better soon..

jess