Success! Down to 24 degrees!

[Pooka1]

Many of you know mom 15 well thats my mom!!!!!!!! I was so happy to see my curvature decrease i go back in a week or 2

Hi Kid_15.

I'm glad you are doing so well.

Can I ask how often you get radiographs?

[Kid_15]

yes every 3 months may i ask why?

[Pooka1]

The reason I ask is that you are almost certainly done growing. If so, maybe you don't need so many radiographs any more. I don't know the procedure when a kid is done growing who isn't fused but I assumed you wouldn't need too many more radiographs and probably no more than every year or so but I don't know that. Not every three months! Do you know why you are getting so many radiographs when you are likely done growing? Maybe I'm missing something here.

A pediatric orthopedic surgeon (not a chiro) could radiograph your hand and tell you if you are done growing.

Also I know your mother mentioned you would be weaning off the brace in the next three months but will you also stop all the PT and chiro if you are done growing?

We really haven't had anyone come on here who reduced a 42* to a 24* with brace and PT and who was done growing so I just wondering what the plan was.

Also did the chiro or PT person tell you you permanently reduced your curve?

[mamamax]

Congrats!!!

Mom & Kid 15 - Congratulations on the highest order!!


Pooka -

As an adult Spinecor patient, I also receive xrays every three months (and I'm certainly done growing). The xrays confirm (1) any correction going on and (2) check to make sure no progression is going on. I do not think 4 low dose xrays per year are considered any big deal - and this is standard protocol for treatment.

[Pooka1]

So everyone in Spinecor and or PT is having 4 radiographs per year? The rest of their life?

Why is that necessary?

Kid_15 is very unusual in my opinion because she has an apparent decrease (according to a chiro not a surgeon) achieved by brace and PT through the growth spurt and she is likely now done growing. The brace can only hope to hold the curve but the open question is whether PT through the growth spurt can permanently reduce the curve. As you probably know, there is zero proof for this. The pediatric neurosurgeon Dr. Samdani is on that torso rotation video pointing out there is no proof of this ever happening. That's why I asked if the chiros were going to have her stop the PT if she is done growing. That would be proof the PT caused a permanent reduction in the curve though they would have to wait until the weaning period from the brace to end before determining that.

Would the curve go back to 42* when she stops brace and PT if now she is done growing? That is the $64,000 question. It would be huge if there was a permanant reduction as that would be a novel finding for a PT approach as far as I know.

[Pooka1]

I do not think 4 low dose xrays per year are considered any big deal - and this is standard protocol for treatment.

Okay but I better not see Hawes or Clear or whoever make reference to breast cancer or any cancer in relation to surgical fusion of scoliosis.

[mamamax]

Oh boy - here we go. The Spinecor xray thing: Treatment protocol is 2 years (standard) so that would find us with 8 xrays (give or take a few more depending on the case and need). Now you know what? In my years of dealing with scoliosis and yearly check ups, sometimes I've received as many as 8 xrays in one yearly visit!! No - Spinecor patients do not receive xrays every 3 months for the rest of their life.

[Pooka1]

So you are going to wear Spincor for two years and then stop?

[mariaf]

I agree that x-rays every 3 months, in a patient who is done growing, is a bit higher than "standard protocol".

My son was diagnosed in 2000 and is now 11. During all these years the most often that x-rays were ever recommended were every 4 months.

OK, that's only one less x-ray per year than every 3 months, but he was/is a growing child. I've never heard of anyone who was done growing needing 4 x-rays per year.

Even now, following VBS, he only gets 2 x-rays per year and that is only because he is still growing. If his orthopedic surgeon were to turn around and tell me to have him x-rayed 4 times a year after he is done growing, I would certainly question that.

With all the x-rays my son has received in the past 9 years, radiation exposure is a big concern to me. Of course, I'd want him to have all "necessary" x-rays, but not even one more than that.

To expose a child to more radiation than is necessary is wreckless IMHO. Of course, I'm not qualified (as none of us here are) to determine what number of x-rays is necessary, but I believe standard protocol among doctors is NOT 4 times per year in a patient with no growth remaining.

[Ballet Mom]

I think anyone who is being seen by a chiropractor for their scoliosis "treatment" should have an out-of-brace x-ray preferably taken, but at least evaluated, by a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis.

There seems to me to be a lot of questionable measurements going on in the chiro business with "reduced" Cobb angles being quoted, but in my opinion, no actual change in the look of the spine.

If people want a true measurement, and they may not, it behooves them to have the Cobb angle measurements verified by an experienced orthopedist.

And at that appointment with the orthopedist, they could bring up having the x-rays every three months and see what the medical doctor thinks about that.

[Pooka1]

I think anyone who is being seen by a chiropractor for their scoliosis "treatment" should have an out-of-brace x-ray preferably taken, but at least evaluated, by a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in scoliosis.

I agree. As I understand Mom_15, her daughter in not presently under the care of a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, only (unqualified) chiros. Not sure how she sleeps at night but everyone is different.

There seems to me to be a lot of questionable measurements going on in the chiro business with "reduced" Cobb angles being quoted, but in my opinion, no actual change in the look of the spine.

Questionable measurements by chiros AND by the two orthopedic surgeons in Montreal. I had heard that orthopedic surgeons dismiss Spinecor literature but it wasn't until CD posted his experience that I fully understood why nobody believes their numbers. All researchers have is their intellectual honesty and professional integrity. The two up in Montreal don't seem to have that any more within the pediatric orthopedic community. (ETA: Also I think some surgeons tried the brace and abandoned it based on their results. So I don't think questions about the published Spinecor data are the only reason the brace is largely not used by surgeons. Perhaps chiros don't understand how to evaluate the literature? They almost certainly don't have the relevant training and some don't have college degrees.)

If people want a true measurement, and they may not, it behooves them to have the Cobb angle measurements verified by an experienced orthopedist.

And at that appointment with the orthopedist, they could bring up having the x-rays every three months and see what the medical doctor thinks about that.

Excellent points.

What is on the table is she is starting from at best a 42* (if the brace held the curve or if the curve didn't move on its own). The open question is what, if anything, did the PT do during the growth spurt to hold or reduce that number. Until she stops the bracing and PT completely then this remains unknown. Continuing the chiro is not likely a confounder here in my opinion... doesn't matter if that continues in order to determine what the PT did if anything.

[Ballet Mom]

Questionable measurements by chiros AND by the two orthopedic surgeons in Montreal.

Yes, that's why I said to have the x-rays evaluated by a "local" orthopedist.

Oh, and if indeed the measurement by the chiropractor turns out to be invalid, please report that to your state medical board or state regulator of chiros, so if this is indeed going on, it can be drummed out of the chiro community and help other people in the process.

[Pooka1]

Yes, that's why I said to have the x-rays evaluated by a "local" orthopedist.

Oh, and if indeed the measurement by the chiropractor turns out to be invalid, please report that to your state medical board or state regulator of chiros, so if this is indeed going on, it can be drummed out of the chiro community and help other people in the process.

Well I was going to say maybe they should try to get the chiro charged with practicing medicine without a license with potentially serious consequences.

[Pooka1]

As near as I can tell, the orthopedic surgeon measured the 42* and the chiro measured the 24*. It would be interesting and instructive to ask the surgeon to measure the last 72-hour out of brace radiograph from 3 months ago but especially the 1-week out of brace radiograph to be done this month.

It would also be interesting to have the chiro measure the 42* curve without telling him ahead of time what the measurement is. I'd pay to see that.

[Kid_15]

Im really confused we will all see how everthing goes in 2 weeks