Extended Wong comments

[Pooka1]

I was simply discussing the document you brought up to illustrate safety - which in my case (degenerative disc disease) does change the ball game to Class III, it appears.

No I don't think you can assume pedicle screws are necessarily class III for DDD when the cause of the DDD is scoliosis. I think it means they are class III for ONLY DDD.

And anyway, if pedicle screws are safe and effective for people with scoliosis plus DDD there there is no issue. You have to ask a reputable experienced surgeon.

[mamamax]

But pedicle screws are not controversial. Spinecor is. That's why it was a non sequitor in this thread.

And when did I ever say people can't choose their treatment?

Well I define a recall of 6472 units for all systems in 2008 a little controversial (but that's just me) http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script..._DT=2008-10-28

While you have never specifically said that people cannot chose their own treatment - your comments sometimes indicate that you find certain treatment choices (such as Spinecor), fodder for spirited debate which near borders on ridicule. I do understand you are just spirited ;-)

[Pooka1]

Well I define a recall of 6472 units for all systems in 2008 a little controversial (but that's just me) http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/script..._DT=2008-10-28

That is a recall of devices from one company out of how many companies? It is likely a fraction of all the screws being used at that time. For example my one kid who was fused before that recall didn't get that hardware. For all we know very few people got that hardware of the total.

Corvairs were "unsafe at any speed" but that doesn't mean cars are not a good product.

Pedicle screws are arguably the best breakthrough in spinal fusion in the last several years, even according to that Kiester surgeon guy some on this group seem to like. These screws are the reason my kid now has imperceptible rotation when before you couldn't miss it.

[mamamax]

Yep - putting it into perspective, it is a (like I said) a rather small controversy.

You'll get no argument from me that instrumentation continues to improve - far superior to even 40 years ago, when I was twenty.

You said earlier that in your opinion, Spincor is controversial. I would say that controversy is - in the eye of the beholder.

[mariaf]

The JIS crowd is relatively small (luckily!) but I hope they start doing studies on that and quit screwing around with AIS where nobody seems to believe their numbers and where we have seen a real life example of incorrect numbers from right on this group. Just like in this case, I suspect enough surgeons remeasured the Cobb angles from Montreal and formed an opinion about the quality of the data coming out of that group.

Well said, Sharon.

[txmarinemom]

Yep - putting it into perspective, it is a (like I said) a rather small controversy.

You'll get no argument from me that instrumentation continues to improve - far superior to even 40 years ago, when I was twenty.

I'd just like to qualify that spinal hardware - and methods of instrumentation - have come leaps and bounds in *20* years (lights years from 40), and further every 5 years than bracing (success-wise) has come in its entire *existence*.

Surgery/instrumentation isn't limited to fusion as you know it.

In the last 5 years (longer for some, like Maria's David) VBS has shown REAL results ... results that have held ... are STILL holding. Titanium Rib has become a viable option for kids facing young fusion that allows "fusionless temporary fusion"; stabilization that allows full growth until the real deal.

As a child diagnosed with JIS, do I wish VBS had been around in 1979? You bet. I can't manage to work up the same longing for Spinecor in '79.

The braced child in me - and the fused adult - views Spinecor as just another brace, and I haven't seen proof otherwise.

And I'm still not convinced *any* of them work on many of us.

Pam

[Pooka1]

And I'm still not convinced *any* of them work on many of us.

Neither are many orthopedic surgeons.

[mamamax]

The braced child in me - and the fused adult - views Spinecor as just another brace, and I haven't seen proof otherwise.

And I'm still not convinced *any* of them work on many of us.

Pam

Regarding bracing (in general), right here in this forum we find many for whom bracing has worked - and many for whom bracing has not worked. The how and the why of that, yet to be established. Hopefully, the largest bracing study in history will help establish those facts (BrAIST). At this time, Spinecor is not included in the BrAIST study which is limited to TLSOs only. Still, this study does hold promise for understanding much more than we do now regarding bracing in general.

To be able to establish for whom bracing will work, and for whom it will not (without years of trial and error) would be a huge step forward - I don't know that the BrAIST study will be able to do that - but it could be a step in that direction.

One can only imagine what the next 40 years will bring towards advances in both surgical and non surgical treatments. Hope we are all here to see it - and hope I'll still be able to put together a coherent sentence to discuss it :-)

[Pooka1]

Regarding bracing (in general), right here in this forum we find many for whom bracing has worked -

Nobody has shown this. And it certainly isn't "many."

[mamamax]

Maybe I should develop a list Sharon

[LindaRacine]

Maybe I should develop a list Sharon

Save your time. If someone wore a brace, and has not had to have surgery, there's no proof that the brace was the cause of that result. It's entirely possible that the person who was braced wouldn't have needed surgery in the first place, and there's also no guarantee that they won't need surgery in the future.

[txmarinemom]

Nobody has shown this. And it certainly isn't "many."

No. It isn't many, and I'd LOVE to see the list - and who followed and verified every outcome.

[txmarinemom]

Save your time. If someone wore a brace, and has not had to have surgery, there's no proof that the brace was the cause of that result. It's entirely possible that the person who was braced wouldn't have needed surgery in the first place, and there's also no guarantee that they won't need surgery in the future.

Exactly. I wore a brace (inconsistenly) and my curve barely moved. I finally had surgery for progression of pain; not curvature.

In your expert compilation of bracing stats, Mamamax, on which side of the fence would *I* fall? Would I have remained stable from 10 to 18 absent any brace since I only had bracing in sight of my parents?

[Ballet Mom]

Damn, where to start.....?

txmarinemom,

Your post from the archives:

My old films are long gone, but I *think* my thoracic (structural) curve was about 35° when I was diagnosed. It's held steady at ±50° (staying within the ±5° variation for the Cobb) in adulthood.

http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...agnosed&page=4 Post #55

/
/

As a child diagnosed with JIS, do I wish VBS had been around in 1979? You bet.

Unfortunately, with a 35 degree thoracic curve at diagnosis, you wouldn't be eligible for VBS (except with growing rods).

Exactly. I wore a brace (inconsistenly) and my curve barely moved. I finally had surgery for progression of pain; not curvature.

You apparently were diagnosed at 35 degrees at almost eleven years of age. You didn't wear your brace and you must have progressed to just over 50 degrees as would be expected, and then held there until you chose surgery for pain relief.

In your expert compilation of bracing stats, Mamamax, on which side of the fence would *I* fall? Would I have remained stable from 10 to 18 absent any brace since I only had bracing in sight of my parents?

I would throw your data out due to bracing non-compliance. No doubt the studies are full of non-compliance failures such as yours, making the bracing data look worse than it is for those who actually are compliant.

[Ballet Mom]

Originally Posted by txmarinemom
And I'm still not convinced *any* of them work on many of us.

Neither are many orthopedic surgeons.

Your references for this assertion?