PT as a treatment of scoliosis

[flerc]

If that curve worsening is because of ligaments I think that it would cause permanent worsening, and curve would not come back to its original shape after sleeping all night.

I thought the same until I saw this: http://izismile.com/2010/09/22/meet_...sexy_girl.html
If ligaments are like rubber bands, who knows if because gravity force during the day they begin to stretch..

[flerc]

Or everything is a matter of fascias? http://www.abmp.com/textonlymags/art...hp?article=990
An osteopath said me that is very much difficult to try to do this kind of distinction among ligaments and muscles functions.. everything seems to be interconnected and fascias seems to wrap everything. Recently a Rolfer proved the contractile fascias properties. Science seems to be in diapers!

[sparklegirl59]

Hello, Boogaloo

Hi, Boogaloo,

I had a 30 thoracic and 31 lumbar degree curve in my back. I wore a Boston Brace for 3 1/2 years. After I got out of the brace, I was told a year later that my curve was 36. I started doing Yoga as suggested by a bone surgeon and a registered nurse. I went back a year later and found that my curve degree went down by one, and my doctor released me from his care, saying that I am a 'stable kid.' I am very happy with the way Yoga makes my back feel. I get so relaxed when I do Yoga as well. I have to say that I agree with you on all of your points with the PT. Certain exercises and stretches really DO help your spine! After all, it is surrounded by muscles and when these muscles are strengthened, that is only beneficial to your spine. Good luck with everything! May I ask how you are doing now?

Sincerely,
Val

[boogaloo]

Hi Val,
thank you for sharing your experience. I am doing great, don't have any pain or limitations so far. Knocking on the wood!
Now I am few months in my excercise routine and I am feeling better every day. I gained some muscles and I am motivated even more to accomplish what I started. 186 cm and 70 kg. Must gain some weight. I will be updating here to keep an eye on my progress.

[Kevin_Mc]

Sorry for missing this last year. Flerc alerted me to some discussions but I somehow missed this part after I clarified a point on a different thread (not sure which one). It's true, I don't come on here that often anymore, but I still get alerts if someone quotes something I said or sends me a private message, so feel free to utilize that if you'd like my input.

Boogaloo, you seem to have the right idea. At least as far as the components of the curve that can influence progression, e.g. Cobb, rotation, etc... If you have any remaining questions, I'd be happy to give my thoughts.

[flerc]

Kevin!! Great to see you here again!. I'm in a hurry now, I show you what I'm thinking to do

Thanx Alistar, certainly I arrived to the conclusion that this before after x-rays values should to be really right, otherwise SEAS group would have said something, I understand they critiziced and doubted about everything except this. And I think this conclusion will lead me to go ahead with the 'Side Plank Project'.. nothing simple in my case. I realized some days ago that the therapy my daughter is doing since years ago may be seen as the opposite of strengthener exercises so probably her physiatrist don't agree or the effect of the Side Plank may be lost after those sessions, so probably she should to leave her physiatrist for some months.. something very much hard and difficult to do. But certainly if this exercise worked in those cases, I should to try and run the risks..

It would be the best to know what you think!

[Kevin_Mc]

I don't see how a side plank would be harmful. On the other hand, the amount of work they are talking about performing, i.e. hold the pose until exhaustion (~90seconds) once per day, would likely have little to no effect in curves >30°. I understand that the initial trial showed some promising results. But this has been the problem with exercise treatment and scoliosis for a century. That is, a long time ago exercise was deemed as "push ups, sit ups, side bends and the like". If a single exercise performed once per day could have an effect on the spine, then it would seem like slouching would have caused a lot more problems than it does in teenagers.

Without reading the entire study it's hard to make a fair judgement. But initially, it just doesn't seem to be enough stress to the muscles and other structures to effect any kind of change. I'd love nothing more than an exercise or series of exercises to prove to be 100% effective in any size scoliosis curve, degenerative or idiopathic (which is what the study claims). But I remain very skeptical.

Again, to answer your question, I don't see how it would do any harm really.

[flerc]

Thanks Kevin. Certainly what I'm afraid is not really about some real harm, but a waste of efforts doing this demanding exercise strenghtening some (which?) muscles and also 'weakening' probably the same muscles with Gpr sesions, so nothing good would be achieved after those months and surely my daughter would forget this exercise for ever. Of course it would not have any sense if this exercise would be unable to reduce a big curve. But if this would be the case, then the before after x-rays values would not be right and it seems that nobody is saying this.
Of course is something incredible, the only "explanation" I imagine is that muscles are working with the curve reduced.. I didn't see the back of my daughter doing it but I suppose the spine should to be stretched in that pose.. I think muscles may really work in that way.. is what I think happens with the Spinecor. But even if we cannot understand it, if x-ryas are a fact, then it works.. what may we does to be sure?

[AMom]

modified side plank

...

Without reading the entire study it's hard to make a fair judgement....

Check your email

[flerc]

Kevin, do you know which muscles are activated by this exercise? Certainly I was trying to know which muscles are activated when the Spinecor for adults is used; I suppose they should to be the muscles allowing us to support a heavy weight over the shoulders, making us taller. Probably these muscles also have to do with rotation. I don’t know why Mri are not used to know these issues.

[Pooka1]

Certainly I was trying to know which muscles are activated when the Spinecor for adults is used;

All braces including Spinecor de-activate muscles. They take over some of the work of the muscles so the muscles decline.

[flerc]

Really not. Spinecor is not a brace. The bands does tensions leading the body to adopt the best posture. Muscles are working when the Spinecor is used and the curve is reduced if the spine is enough flexible, but nobody says which are those muscles. They only says is a neuromuscular system working through thousands of movements per day adapting the body to a better posture. I cannot understand why nobody uses Mri to know which are those muscles.

[Kevin_Mc]

I don’t know why Mri are not used to know these issues.

I had this experiment in my dissertation proposal. My committee removed it due to a number of logistical issues. But I have wanted to do this for at least a decade now... sigh


The standard paraspinal muscles are usually mentioned, multifidus, longisimus, etc.. as well as some of the latisimus and obliques. The intercostal muscles are heavily implicated in poliotic scoliosis which sort of causes the spine to collapse due to paralysis. Ultimately, the spine uses such a large number of muscles for the various movements it is very difficult to know exactly how it does what it does. There is a lot of redundancy programmed into our movement patterns. Evolutionarily, this keeps us functional on a day to day basis. But long term can lead to injury if our movements create too much stress on certain segments.

So, the short answer is that any muscles we say are being activated are just theoretical based on biomechanics.

[Pooka1]

In your professional opinion, is Spinecor a brace and does it necessarily cause muscle atrophy?

[flerc]

I had this experiment in my dissertation proposal. My committee removed it due to a number of logistical issues. But I have wanted to do this for at least a decade now... sigh


The standard paraspinal muscles are usually mentioned, multifidus, longisimus, etc.. as well as some of the latisimus and obliques. The intercostal muscles are heavily implicated in poliotic scoliosis which sort of causes the spine to collapse due to paralysis. Ultimately, the spine uses such a large number of muscles for the various movements it is very difficult to know exactly how it does what it does. There is a lot of redundancy programmed into our movement patterns. Evolutionarily, this keeps us functional on a day to day basis. But long term can lead to injury if our movements create too much stress on certain segments.

So, the short answer is that any muscles we say are being activated are just theoretical based on biomechanics.

Yes, surely it should to be very hard to deduce what muscle does exactly what.. and why to deduce if an experiment may show it! It doesn't seem to have much sense. Anyway those x-rays values seems to be right, so this asymetric exercise
should had to provoke important structural changes in those C curves.