Quackwatch and Schroth

[scoliomom]

you guys are funny for sure! thanks for "clarifying" what I meant in my post. we're lucky you're there with the answers ..

[Pooka1]

you guys are funny for sure! thanks for "clarifying" what I meant in my post. we're lucky you're there with the answers ..

I don't claim to have "answers." I have a few facts, though.

[Jinseeker]

To set the record straight about Schroth, I for one, 100% admit it has helped me better than any chiropractic treatment or physical therapy advised by an orthopedic. I wouldn't have believed it myself, that a few hours of scouting the internet for alternatives proved to have been the best thing I've ever done for my scoliosis pain. The only Schroth I have done were all self-taught. I drew it in from all the free based pdf articles posted in the schroth website to familiarize me with the philosophy behind it. A philosophy that has made more sense to me about understanding my own scoliosis better than anything a chiropractor or orthopedic surgeon ever bothered to explain. One of my favorite philosophies I learned from schroth can be summarized in this quote,

" your body is structured differently, therefore it is not meant to be used the same way as a normal body."

IN addition to this, I also purchased a set of online videos from spineharmony.com telling me specifically what schroth exercises to do for my set of curves, and I have been doing those same exercises ever since. Schroth taught me how I can empower myself to deal with my condition by fully understanding what is going on with my spine and the faulty mechanics of my body. I have been able to avoid costly chiropractic treatments and physical therapy all due to this. I plan on purchasing their schroth book someday to learn more about new exercises I can do for my spine.

I still do not know why no controlled long-term studies have been made proving their effectiveness, but my best bet is it could be because they want to continue pushing their research past just successfully treating scoliosis for pain but into actually reducing the scoliosis curve as well. Any long-term controlled studies would prove to be a double-edged sword for them, since not all patient cases will be successful in reducing curvature.

To conclude, Schroth is NOT quackery and does not belong to quackwatch. I do not recommend it for reducing scoliosis in severe structural curves, nor do I recommend any treatment claiming they can do that as well. However, for pain and posture stabilization I highly do. I could just imagine how much more effective schroth would be if I enrolled into their clinic and did their exercises 6 hours a day with guidance from a therapist. They are a strong testament that EXERCISE does keep a scoliosis curve from progressing.

[Pooka1]

Hi Jinseeker.

The quacky claims are those having to do with permanently reducing curves in adults with PT. That definitely belongs on Quackwatch. Kids are an open question I think. I doubt there is evidence for stabilization only because it would be very hard to show given how variable scoliosis is.

I assume you know Weiss, Schroth's grandson, ran her clinic for 10 years, had tens of thousands of patients, tried to find evidence and failed. He has given up Schroth and only does bracing (in kids). Schroth has been around for over 90 years. How much time do they need? I am told Schroth is still a fringe treatment even in Germany. Fusions go on as ever there.

PT for pain is not quackery. There is plenty of evidence for that.

[rohrer01]

Jinseeker,

With ANY treatment for scoliosis there can be a few outcomes that measure "success". For example:

Improved Cobb angle: objective

Improved breathing capacity: objective

Improved heart function: objective

Improved pain: subjective

Improved cosmetic appearance: subjective

The Schroth method, in MY opinion, covers only the last two outcomes, which are subjective. It's difficult (not entirely impossible) to measure subjective results. With subjective results, people can be so enamored with what they are doing that they list a positive result. Years later, the person may still have the "same" result going on but rate things totally differently, especially if they become disenchanted with the therapy.

If the Schroth method or any other method tries to claim efficacy in any other category, they need to prove it with controlled studies. Some people may say, "I breathe easier after treatment". That doesn't mean anything unless actual lung function was tested before and after. If it's not tested, then that falls into the pain category. You may breathe easier because it doesn't hurt to breathe when, in fact, your lung capacity has not changed.

This is what makes studying these treatments difficult. I am not and will not ever say an alternative treatment can't help a person. When I was in my 20's, I had GREAT success with pain management from targeted exercises given to my by a physical therapist at the hospital. I went from being on oxycontin to rarely ever needing an over the counter pain pill. To me, that was GREAT success. But, all the while, my curve was still progressing. It didn't halt progression at all. It gave me a couple of years of relief.

[flerc]

I checked on Quackwatch if Schroth was listed but couldn't find it. So I sent the Schroth website to Quackwatch and asked what they thought.

You have time for this, good for you! Clearly you are not spending your time here because a health problem, not?. Well, if writting here would be my job, probably I would also be spending my time here talking about something not having to do with the the problem for which I'm here .. money is allways a help.
You had not much success trying to defame braces, so are you going now for PT? Good idea!.
You should to ask to Quackwatch folks if the absence of a serious article showing evidence for something (as braist) implies it's a fraud for them. If that is the case, they should to belong to the Quackwatch list.. it would become to seems a more serious list
I'll respond to what you (or people supporting you) reply when I can.. my job has nothing to do with this..

[flerc]

If the Schroth method or any other method tries to claim efficacy in any other category, they need to prove it with controlled studies.

Do you know about controlled studies showing what surgeons claims about surgery? To solve something as scoliosis is much more than reducing the curve.

[flerc]

Any long-term controlled studies would prove to be a double-edged sword for them, since not all patient cases will be successful in reducing curvature.

Exactly!!!! What if only 20% may avoid surgery? Would it be a good publicity? They are not a charitable society, not?.

[rohrer01]

Do you know about controlled studies showing what surgeons claims about surgery? To solve something as scoliosis is much more than reducing the curve.

Did you even READ my post? Did I mention surgery? I lumped ALL treatments into what they need to show.
Yes, surgery DOES reduce curves.
Surgery can also DECREASE lung function.
Those two categories are OBJECTIVE, meaning they can be measured and are not someone's opinion.
Why are you even bringing up surgery? I didn't.
I didn't suggest Schroth should be on Quackwatch, either.
You assume I'm attacking an alternative method. READ MY POST.

[rohrer01]

By the way, Flerc, there a many studies on surgical outcomes. There are very good surgical outcomes. There are very bad surgical outcomes. There are many surgical outcomes in between "really good" and "really bad". This is NOT the topic of THIS thread. If you want to know surgical studies, look them up for yourself. I don't have an agenda to prod people into having major life altering surgery OR keep them from having it if they and their doctors feel they need it. What is YOUR agenda? It seems you wish to convince the entire population that no one with scoliosis should ever consider surgery. What treatments people use are their business. We are here for an interchange of information and to ENCOURAGE one another.

Pooka1 looked to see if Schroth was on Quackwatch and asked their opinion. She posted what they said. To you this would be a defeat for Pooka1. IF there were a TRUE agenda to trash every alternative therapy (meaning "not surgery"), she wouldn't have bothered to post any of this information.

Once again, you are ruining a perfectly good thread. You have contributed ZERO useful input into this discussion.

[Pooka1]

The reason people like flerc assume I am pro-surgery is because I am pro-evidence. Being pro-evidence just happens in the case of scoliosis to look like pro-surgery except in the case of certain pain where the evidence is PT can be better than surgery.

[Victine]

You have time for this, good for you! Clearly you are not spending your time here because a health problem, not?. Well, if writting here would be my job, probably I would also be spending my time here talking about something not having to do with the the problem for which I'm here .. money is allways a help.
You had not much success trying to defame braces, so are you going now for PT? Good idea!.
You should to ask to Quackwatch folks if the absence of a serious article showing evidence for something (as braist) implies it's a fraud for them. If that is the case, they should to belong to the Quackwatch list.. it would become to seems a more serious list
I'll respond to what you (or people supporting you) reply when I can.. my job has nothing to do with this..

Flerc, you are TOO funny! :-)

[Pooka1]

Flerc, you are TOO funny! :-)

Instead of completely empty comments like this, can you post before and after PT radiographs demonstrating efficacy of the PT you or your child are doing? Why do we rarely see this? Would anyone know Martha Hawes' name if she didn't post before and after PT radiographs? NO.

[mariaf]

By the way, Flerc, there a many studies on surgical outcomes. There are very good surgical outcomes. There are very bad surgical outcomes. There are many surgical outcomes in between "really good" and "really bad". This is NOT the topic of THIS thread. If you want to know surgical studies, look them up for yourself. I don't have an agenda to prod people into having major life altering surgery OR keep them from having it if they and their doctors feel they need it. What is YOUR agenda? It seems you wish to convince the entire population that no one with scoliosis should ever consider surgery. What treatments people use are their business. We are here for an interchange of information and to ENCOURAGE one another.

Pooka1 looked to see if Schroth was on Quackwatch and asked their opinion. She posted what they said. To you this would be a defeat for Pooka1. IF there were a TRUE agenda to trash every alternative therapy (meaning "not surgery"), she wouldn't have bothered to post any of this information.

Once again, you are ruining a perfectly good thread. You have contributed ZERO useful input into this discussion.

Well said, Rohrer.

And hopefully before anyone responds, they will actually READ your post this time.

[Victine]

Instead of completely empty comments like this, can you post before and after PT radiographs demonstrating efficacy of the PT you or your child are doing?

Yes, I actually COULD! :-)