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Thread: Who Decides?

  1. #76
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    Just because science is unbiased (although I disagree here), does not mean favoring it isn't. But,we can agree to disagree on this too.
    Last edited by bas2101; 11-08-2009 at 02:56 PM. Reason: revised

  2. #77
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    I love science, but it's really an inadequate tool for complex issues. If you have a simple issue with a single cause, science is your tool. If you have a complex issue with multiple influencing factors, science is going to have a very hard time getting to the bottom of the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Oh really? What is better than the scientific method in rooting out bias and gaining REAL knowledge?

    Nothing.

    Science is the only game out there that is self-correcting and where you can actually get points for proving YOURSELF wrong.

    It is truly the only game in town for getting to the bottom of anything. This is not news.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    I love science, but it's really an inadequate tool for complex issues. If you have a simple issue with a single cause, science is your tool. If you have a complex issue with multiple influencing factors, science is going to have a very hard time getting to the bottom of the problem.
    I disagree in principle and practice.

    But assuming you are correct, name anything better.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by bas2101 View Post
    Just because science is unbiased (although I disagree here), does not mean favoring it isn't. But,we can agree to disagree on this too.
    You are arguing with taking issue with the only game in town?

    Name something, anything, that is better.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #80
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    For scoliosis, to the best of my knowledge, *nothing* is based on good science. Not the surgical treatment, not the bracing, not chiropracters, not exercise . . . nothing. It's all just muddling through. We try something - if it seems to work, we go on doing it. We tinker a little and make slight improvements. And, so it goes. Rinse and repeat.

    So, I'm voting for muddling through. Without it - if we instead waited for the results of pure, good science - we'd have absolutely nothing to offer those with scoliosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I disagree in principle and practice.

    But assuming you are correct, name anything better.

  6. #81
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    Did pigs start flying. (Thought for certain they must, as Sharon and BalletMom have agreed on something.)

    Arthur Copes was an unlicensed orthotist, not a chiropractor.

    --Linda

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by hdugger View Post
    For scoliosis, to the best of my knowledge, *nothing* is based on good science. Not the surgical treatment, not the bracing, not chiropracters, not exercise . . . nothing. It's all just muddling through. We try something - if it seems to work, we go on doing it. We tinker a little and make slight improvements. And, so it goes. Rinse and repeat.

    So, I'm voting for muddling through. Without it - if we instead waited for the results of pure, good science - we'd have absolutely nothing to offer those with scoliosis.
    Yes hands are tied. But even people muddling through are at least trying to use the scientific method on the way when they can. The BRaIST study is one example. Surgeons depart from that into "muddling through" such as uncontrolled studies, "anecdote as data," continuous improvement of surgical techniques based on the previous problems, etc. in the mean time.

    That they are forced to muddle through doesn't mean science isn't the gold standard nor that it wouldn't be best if they could use the scientific method. Nobody is going to choose anecdote if they can test hypotheses adequately.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post

    Arthur Copes was an unlicensed orthotist, not a chiropractor.

    --Linda
    Linda makes an important point here! Mr. Copes was indeed an unlicensed orthotist and not a chiropractor. The licensing and oversight of the chiropractic profession is handled on a state level in the US - maybe orthotists are also? Louisiana (where Copes practiced) is not one of the more "stricter" states in terms licensing and oversight of chiropractors. The title Dr is legally granted to Chiropractors based upon their level of education. Most folks understand that title is not the same as MD - or at least I certainly hope they do.

    Some chiropractors have gone on to specialize, and dedicate their practice to scoliosis treatment, trained with the inventors of the Spinecor brace (and continue to work closely with them), achieved certification to treat (unsupervised), document their results and publish them in the Scoliosis Journal, prepare SOSORT presentations, and have traveled to Germany several times in order to obtain Schroth certification.

    Certification to treat with Spinecore on an unsupervised basis is, a big big thing. And something bty - that Drs Weiss and Wong did not have when they conducted their less than positive studies. Neither to this date, are certified by the manufacturer to treat on an unsupervised basis - that information can be found at the manufacturer's web site. Just an FYI for those who rely heavily on studies ;-)

  9. #84
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    To be honest, if someone says "Hi, I'm a Doctor, I can treat your medical condition" then I do assume they mean they are a medically qualified doctor.

    And if someone says "Come to our clinic, we have some of the most experienced scoliosis doctors in the world working there", I assume they mean they are medically qualified doctors too.

    I think that it is deliberately misleading not to state that they are chiropractors. My best friend is a Doctor of Classics, and he knows a lot about what it's like to live with scoliosis. Would he be misleading anyone if he said to them "hello, I'm a doctor and I have a lot of experience with scoliosis"?
    Last edited by tonibunny; 11-09-2009 at 10:09 AM.

  10. #85
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    One more click and I become

    Reverand Concerned Dad



    Thankfully, the situation isnt that bad for Chiropractors.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bas2101 View Post
    The gold standard? I mentioned earlier in the thread, that scoliosis should treated with an integrated approach between many physicians, including the surgeon, if need be. Since scoliois affects many systems of the body-nervous, skeletal, muscular, immune, respiratory, endocrine (potentially), and also connective tissue, lungs, heart, genes, and so on, there should as many specialists, treating a patient in tandem. Including orthorist & PT if need be.
    Good luck with that one. With sweeping healthcare reform underway, a boatload of specialists treating a scoliotic ainít gonna happen.

  12. #87
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    Don't get caught up in the arguement

    Do what works for you even if it means doing what ever you have to, to find what you need. Don't discount any type of treatment until you find your answer. And don't listen to some of the posters here that like to argue over scraps of data. Just listen to your gut feeling and don't give up. There are answers out there and they might come from "mainstream" or "alternative" methods, who cares, they are out there if you look hard enough and keep an open mind.

  13. #88
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    Hi Brooke
    as for integrated approach with different specialists working together...in medicine, i have found that is rare...when lyme patients were deathly sick with orthopedic, neurological & all kinds of other problems, as lyme is a multi-systemic disease, they didnt cooperate or work together...why would they do so for scoliosis? i dont know why, but medical doctors seem to rarely coordinate treatment between specialties..that has been my experience, anyway...

    jess

  14. #89
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    History of scoliosis treatment in pictures-from ancient times

    Attempts at scoliosis treatment-all non-surgical until the 1900's. Surgery tried because of their failures out of desperation.


    http://drlloydhey.blogspot.com/2008/...t-3000-bc.html
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

  15. #90
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    Lightbulb More history of scoliosis treatment

    Last edited by Karen Ocker; 11-09-2009 at 02:59 PM.
    Original scoliosis surgery 1956 T-4 to L-2 ~100 degree thoracic (triple)curves at age 14. NO hardware-lost correction.
    Anterior/posterior revision T-4 to Sacrum in 2002, age 60, by Dr. Boachie-Adjei @Hospital for Special Surgery, NY = 50% correction

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