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  • #16
    Originally posted by michael1960 View Post
    I know some also feel orthopedic surgeons have all the answers. But unfortunately they also do not have all the answers.
    I don't think anyone thinks orthopedic surgeons have all the answers. They clearly don't . They simply have the most efficacious approaches with the most evidence to date which is far from best.

    But a surprisingly common misconception is that just because orthopedic surgeons don't have an answer doesn't mean ANY alternative treatment purveyor does. That doesn't follow logically.

    It is very shocking to realize how many folks simply assume there is an effective treatment because there must be. Again, I don't see the logic.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

    Comment


    • #17
      Pooka1

      Thanks for the simple response. Short and to the point. Very effective. Here are some thoughts.

      I don't think people are drawing the same conclusion that you did regarding the misconception that if orthopedic surgeons don't have the answer than any alternative treatment purveyor does.

      At no time, have I personally, made that assumption. However, you make the reference like it applies to everyone. In all your threads you make it all sound black and white, but there are many gray areas when it comes to scoliosis treatments and their success.

      Do you support VBS? Are there any studies that show VBS is effective? I see studies by Dr. Betz, but he is the one that is doing it and promoting it. And while he has treated a lot of people, it did not work for many of them (over 35 degree curve). And their were complications for others. So, while I hear so much discredit to all the alternative treatments, can you point me to the surgical ones, especially the minimal invasive treatments? And this is a sincere request because I am building a new website with all this information and would very much like to include surgical studies.

      I have read many of your threads and posts, and learned a lot from them. However, they can be a bit misleading because you have a very strong bias towards orthopedic surgeons and a strong bias against chiropractors and other forms of treatment. Therefore, I have to always consider that when I read a post.

      If you want your spine to be straightened, regardless of whether it is for pain reduction or cosmetic purposes, the orthopedic surgeon methods are probably the quickest and most effective, with the least amount of effort (but probably the highest risk).

      I know quite a few people, and you probably know more, that have 50+ curves and do not have any real issues with scoliosis other than the look of it. Several of them I know are college athletes who play quite well with scoliosis and experience very little pain. But when they are done playing sports they will have surgery to correct it. If any non-surgical treatment works, it will take years to get the benefits that they can get in a 10 hour surgery and weeks of recovery.

      We need to all be very smart about what we do, evaluate the options, consider the risks, determine the cost/benefit, and then make a decision, and they pray we made the right decision.

      You say you don't see the logic in many folks simply assuming there is an effective treatment. Again, you are making an assumption or generalization that is probably not the case for many parents who have taken the time to educate themselves.

      So far, none of your generalizations, that you speak of with great confidence and commitment, apply to me and many other parents I know. Unfortunately, someone new to scoliosis may actually believe these generalizations and miss the opportunities to find alternative treatments that work for them. Or they follow the direction of one orthopedic surgeon and end up having rods and fusion.

      Also, at no point in any of my comments did I say I simply assume there was a treatment. On the contrary, I see no ideal treatment. But what I do see are many "professional" and parents dedicating their lives to finding treatments for scoliosis.

      And while there may be many quacks out there making the claim they can fix scoliosis, they are in all professions, including the medical profession. We have surgeons making recommendations to put in rods and do fusion because that is all they know. They have yet to taken the time to embrace the latest surgical treatments. However, we have other surgeons on the leading edge testing their ideas/theories or their own inventions inside our children. When we ask these surgeons the long term effect of staples in the body, or new rods in the body, they can only hope it will be ok, but many have commented "we are learning right along with the patient". I assume that this practice would be unacceptable outside the medical profession but it seems to be acceptable in the medical profession.

      In the end, my own personal opinion or theory is that the right combination of physical therapy (if nothing else to strengthen the muscles in the spine through exercise), bracing (whether it is to temporary hold a curve before surgery), and surgery are the right choices. And if a person wants to try non-surgical methods to reduce the curve or hold the curve to prevent surgery, then more power to them, and we all should be happy for the number of them who are successful and avoid surgery.

      By the way, I like your passion and spirit. I just don't agree with your generalizations of people.

      I look forward to many more discussions.

      You are an interesting person. When I posted the very long message last week regarding my issue in NYC, i waited to see your response. I figured I would take a lashing for my comments. However, I didn't, you actually complimented me. Whew!! I felt lucky. I know some people will not post on this forum for the bashing they will take with an innocent post. And remember, people just want help, not to be criticized. I spend more time on other forums that allow people to be more open and share their experiences and ideas.

      But now I see why you liked that post. I was bashing a chiropractor. Not only a chiropractor but a SpineCor chiropractor. A profession and treatment you strongly disagree with for treating scoliosis.

      Darn, I thought I had really written a good post that passed the Pooka1 test.

      Thanks for all your threads and posts. Embedded in them, when you can get past all the bias feelings, are some great and very helpful suggestions.

      Michael

      Comment


      • #18
        Hi Michael,

        I just wanted to say that I always read your posts with interest, and you are certainly tireless in your quest for the best treatment for Sydney. I think your long post about your negative experiences in NYC and your letter calling Deutchman onto the carpet were both outstanding, heartfelt and well-written.

        I think you may misunderstand some of the zeal against "alternative" treatments. If you read back through several years of posts here (it takes awhile), you will unfortunately find many, many examples of parents who were terrified of bracing and surgery. You will read heartbreaking posts about people who spent countless dollars and invested their hopes in alternative treatments, only to see their children have uncontrolled progression and need surgery anyway. I think a lot of the resistence to alternative treatments is there because kind people wish to help spare other unsuspecting parents and children from their mistakes.

        Do let us know when you get your new website up. I am sure many will be curious to see it.

        Best regards,
        Gayle, age 50
        Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
        Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
        Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


        mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
        2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
        2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

        also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

        Comment


        • #19
          Gayle

          Thank you. I very much appreciate your response. I very much understand your point and it is why I am building this website (scoliosis101.com). I have a long way to go but it is a start. I want to make it one place where people can go and get all information, one stop shop. I have spent so much time researching and researching. Like Clear Method, it may or may not work for us, and I totally disagree (i am disgusted) with their marketing approach to bash surgery. I consider that very unprofessional. However, I spent 2 weeks with Dr. Sid in NYC and his staff. And I am not an easy person to please, primarily due to my very high expectations of all "professionals". But Dr. Sid and his team exceeded my expectations based on how they worked with Sydney and the methods they used. I was able to see improvement along the way and it was very methodical in designing methods that worked for Syd (8 yrs. old, 50 lbs, 4 ft, 30 deg thoracic curve, etc.). Plus along the way they educated me on everything and involved me in all steps. I am still trying to validate whether the method worked and whether our following 6 weeks of exercises, 1-2 hours per day worked to hold the curve. In the end, I may have to write it off as not cost effective. I do not believe it hurt Syd, and it looks like it may have helped. But was it cost effective? In the end, based on the results, I will determine if we should make the investment again. But, the two Clear chiropractors i met over the past year were both very professional and competent in their work.

          However, I have also come across other chiropractors that said they could "cure" Syd of scoliosis. These chiropractors I walk away from. I am getting much better being able to distinguish those who are looking out for Syd vs their own interest. Anymore, when meeting a new "professional" I tell them what I am doing regarding Clear, Schroth, SpineCor brace, Boston brace, and now VBS/Hybrid Rod or VBS/Self-Growing Rod and I look for what they say. When they start bashing another treatment, I walk. I need a "professional" that has an open mind to multi-treatment solutions. The reason I picked Dr. Sid over all other Clear chiropractors because he believes in Clear + SpineCor bracing. It was my own theory to get the curve reduction and hold it with a soft brace. He was the only Clear person I could find with an open mind to combine multiple treatments.

          I too want to protect others from taking a wrong path. We need to figure out how to best direct people down the right path. And don't get me wrong, I feel surgery is probably the best solution for Syd with either Dr. Betz's team or Dr. Durrani but it does not prevent me trying other methods. Dr. Betz and Dr. Durrani have both been open to other non-surgical methods. However, in some cases, they are not familiar with them, and for good reason, they are surgeons, and I hope they are spending their time being the best surgeons they can be, not worrying about validating Clear, Schroth, SpineCor, etc. Leave that to others to validate, meanwhile they can do what they do best and that is providing the best and latest surgical methods for our children.

          But, for example, if a person is considering chiropractor treatment, then what recommendation can we give them other than bashing all chiropractor practices related to scoliosis. That is not the right approach either. This forum, or my new site, or something should provide them with caution taking that approach and provide them with guidelines, independent of marketing material they may be reading. People new to scoliosis, like me, will read these forums and take what people say wholeheartedly, at least in the beginning until I get to know them.

          I appreciate your response. Please take a look at the site. I have a very long ways to go, but for now I am capturing sites, videos, research papers, and manuals in one location. Please don't evaluate what I have collected so far. I am randomly gathering content. When I reach a large volume I will then work on getting others involved to help organize it and find the best material. And it will also allow all users to rank the material so the best documents move to the top of the list. I am still in the process of developing the framework and finalizing what I want the site to do. Please feel free to let me know what you think and what you would like to see in a site. I have added the most videos (youtube) to the surgery fusion/rod section. I started watching videos the other day and could not stop. Some are quite graphic showing the surgery. But it is quite interesting to listen to the stories of young ladies and young men going through surgery.

          I have also provided links to other sites and to the forums. I would like to create the portal or gateway to all scoliosis information. I also want to provide a method by which people like you, Pooka1, and others can provide your input on recommended paths for people to take based on your real life experience. My decisions on how to help Syd are based on input from "professionals" and reading documents/research on the internet. But input and advice from you and others on these forums is invaluable in making decisions.

          Thanks
          Michael
          Last edited by michael1960; 03-20-2010, 01:49 AM.

          Comment


          • #20
            I have crossed so many emails with a Clear doctor and as I ever do, I requested for some proof that in fact it worked in at least, on just only one case similar to my daughter. He gave me the email address and telephone number of a mother of an adolescent in Panama, who told me about amazing results, but her daughter was in full growth, so it was not the case was I was looking for.
            I think that a serious classification must to be done in scoliosis, perhaps not only based in degrees, age, idiopathic or not. It seems to be very much complex than that, and maybe that some solutions as Clear could works in only some of them and could be absolutely useless in other ones.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi Flerc,

              Scoliosis surgeons do sometimes classify cases of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis according to the "King" or "Lenke" systems of curve classification. I have no idea if chiropractors are aware of these systems though.

              This page describes how these classification systems work.

              Hope that's interesting to you!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by michael1960 View Post
                Do you support VBS? Are there any studies that show VBS is effective?
                VBS has many advantages over bracing and is very safe. If my kids had JIS, I would probably be doing that. There are studies but as has been recently pointed out, it seems to work best in smaller curves and lumbar curves, the same two curve classes that don't tend to increase. I have not studied the literature like I would have if it was on the table with my kids but I think a case can be made that it does alter the natural history of scoliosis which, along with VEPTR (and such) and watching/waiting, would make it the only non-fusion technique to do so. The same can't be said of bracing or PT at this time with any confidence.

                I see studies by Dr. Betz, but he is the one that is doing it and promoting it.
                That is incorrect. As I understand it, there are many surgeons who have trained on the technique and the number is growing. I think Maria maintains a list on her VBS site she runs with two other people. I don't know what the criteria are for when a surgical method moves out of the the "experimental" category" into the standard care category but given how insurance companies are now largely paying for it (as I understand), I would say VBS is dong that.

                I have read many of your threads and posts, and learned a lot from them. However, they can be a bit misleading because you have a very strong bias towards orthopedic surgeons and a strong bias against chiropractors and other forms of treatment. Therefore, I have to always consider that when I read a post.
                Well then I haven't been clear. I have a strong bias for factual material and evidence and a strong bias against counterfactual material and unsupported claims. That necessarily plays out as a strong bias towards orthopedic surgeons and a strong bias against chiros who should NOT be treating scoliosis in kids due to lack of appropriate training FULL STOP.

                Similarly, we are in the unfortunate and embarrassing situation where only about 60% of folks in the US accept the fact of evolution and a few billion year old earth. Thus the other 40% will view my comments about that as being strongly biased towards science and strongly biased against religion when in fact I am just strongly biased towards reality and strongly biased against counterfactual claims.

                The point is everyone brings a prism through which they view things. When that prism is not designed to find facts and sort out counterfactual material, there will always be a problem with people who do care about facts. It is inevitable.

                People are entitled to their own opinions; They are NOT entitled to their own facts. Can we agree on that?

                And while there may be many quacks out there making the claim they can fix scoliosis, they are in all professions, including the medical profession. We have surgeons making recommendations to put in rods and do fusion because that is all they know.
                If surgeons make a recommendation for fusion it is because it is the best solution at the present time for a particular patient, NOT because it is all they know. This is another common misconception in my opinion. Surgeons are required to know ALL effective treatments for scoliosis, surgical and conservative (bracing). This is their game and to suggest otherwise is incorrect.

                As medical professionals, they are NOT required to know alternative treatments until the treatments pony up some proof of efficacy. If an alternative treatment is effective, it will get a seat at the big table and become part of medicine. That actually has occurred, acupuncture has been shown to be effective in some very limited cases. But we haven't seen any alternative treatment prove effective yet in the field of scoliosis. Blaming surgeons for that reality of alternative treatment failure is just shooting the messenger.

                You are an interesting person. When I posted the very long message last week regarding my issue in NYC, i waited to see your response. I figured I would take a lashing for my comments. However, I didn't, you actually complimented me. Whew!! I felt lucky. I know some people will not post on this forum for the bashing they will take with an innocent post. And remember, people just want help, not to be criticized. I spend more time on other forums that allow people to be more open and share their experiences and ideas.
                Do you think people should be allowed to post blatantly counterfactual material on a medical forum designed to help people get the facts?

                But now I see why you liked that post. I was bashing a chiropractor. Not only a chiropractor but a SpineCor chiropractor. A profession and treatment you strongly disagree with for treating scoliosis.
                Yes I disagree with it and there is a good reason for that. It isn't random.

                Darn, I thought I had really written a good post that passed the Pooka1 test.
                Actually you did write an excellent post which had a good thought process and was well written. If I did have a test it would have passed easily.

                Thanks for all your threads and posts. Embedded in them, when you can get past all the bias feelings, are some great and very helpful suggestions.
                Thanks for yours. I think you are making very good contributions.
                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                No island of sanity.

                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                Answer: Medicine


                "We are all African."

                Comment


                • #23
                  Sharon, After having lived with scoliosis for 46 of my 57 years, and after trying to avoid surgery for all those years, I find myself agreeing with your approach to all this. There is so much misinformation out there. Dr. Woggon takes on the most severe cases, as I saw in St. Cloud, and says he can help everyone. We all saw him as our last best hope.

                  As Linda said, there are people out there with very severe curves who are going strong, which makes the decision to have surgery so difficult. Especially if there is no pain.

                  Dr. Woggons said that his son was working on a research study through Palmer Institute in Texas on the efficacy of his method. This would be really helpful to those looking for effective alternative treatments. I have yet to hear about it.

                  Scoliosis is really, really hard to cure. It's taken me 57 years to find this out. Most chiropractors know this are are humble enough not to take it on.

                  This forum has given me the courage to finally have surgery. Thank G-d this is one thing I've been spared with my two sons, who have ramrod straight spines. Good luck to all of you who are dealing with this with your children; you have my empathy and admiration.

                  All the best, Joy

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tonibunny View Post
                    Hi Flerc,

                    Scoliosis surgeons do sometimes classify cases of Adolescent Idiopathic Scoliosis according to the "King" or "Lenke" systems of curve classification. I have no idea if chiropractors are aware of these systems though.

                    This page describes how these classification systems work.

                    Hope that's interesting to you!
                    Thanks tonibunny!. In fact I'm still waiting to contact some other parent in the world with a daughter with only similar age (in fact growth prognosis Risser, menarche age) and similar Cobb angle. Surely there not exits another else in the world matching a classification like that.
                    It seems a very good approach to an useful classification, telling not only about the severity but about the kind of factors that must to be specially taken in account, leading to the kind of treatment that should be follow in each case.
                    Some approaches in that sense, seems to be shyly emerging like that (sorry it's in spanish) http://www.ub.edu/revistaipp/bricot_n3.pdf

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Pooka1

                      Thanks for your comments. We will continue to agree to disagree, but that is ok.

                      I have read some of your threads regarding facts. Being a man of science (and God) I too am focused on the facts regarding scoliosis. So help me understand. You are very passionate about the facts. Teach me and others about the facts. Feel free to point me to other threads in which you have presented the facts.

                      What are the best facts you have or know of regarding the best treatment for scoliosis. I have been pursuing them. Point me to the best factual evidence that exists today regarding scoliosis.

                      Whatever you send me, regardless of the detail and length, I will read it all. If there is a lot of information, please prioritize it so I know what is most important to read first.

                      This is a sincere request. Please note that my interest is primarily in JIS. If the available facts for JIS are limited, then AIS, primarily younger AIS.

                      As I have been very open to listen to every professional and every parent, I am very open to learning the facts.

                      I will thank you in advance. And again, please point me to threads or anything that makes this easiest for you. I will dedicated a special place on my website to the facts!

                      Thank You

                      Michael

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
                        Well then I haven't been clear. I have a strong bias for factual material and evidence and a strong bias against counterfactual material and unsupported claims. That necessarily plays out as a strong bias towards orthopedic surgeons and a strong bias against chiros who should NOT be treating scoliosis in kids due to lack of appropriate training FULL STOP.
                        Hi Sharon,

                        You made some terrific points in your post, but I've chosen the one above that I think is extremely important - chiros should not be treating kids with scoliosis. If one's child has scoliosis, they should be treated by a pediatric orthopedic surgeon. As we know, surgeons not only perform various surgical procedures but often use bracing (full-time and part-time, as may be appropriate), so while I can understand one trying to avoid surgery if they can, I do not agree with seeing someone who has not been trained to treat scoliosis.

                        As for VBS, you are correct that there is a growing number of highly regarded doctors performing it, even outside of Shriners (guys like Hresko, Skaggs, Oswald, Diab, Durrani, Vitale, etc.) and I am happy to say that I'm hearing more and more insurance companies are covering it. In fact, I met a mom last week who told me Dr. Vitale has had almost every case he submitted for VBS approved.

                        Since we are about 8+ years into VBS, we are now seeing some patients who have reached skeletal maturity and whose curves have held and have not required fusion. I know of one girl personally and recently learned about another case. Does that mean all of the VBS kids will be so lucky? Of course not. But, unlike methods such as CLEAR or other treatments used by chiropractors, I have not seen any evidence that they can permanently correct a curve. Apparently, most highly regarded and qualified/trained orthos would agree.

                        I'm not trying to put down anyone seeking a non-surgical alternative. If they worked, we'd all be lining up and nobody in their right mind would put their child on the operating table. If a patient can avoid surgery by, say, bracing for a few years, we'd all be very happy for them I'm sure. However, I, like you, just hate to see parents taken in by some of these charlatans out there who are just trying to make a buck - which is quite a different story.
                        mariaf305@yahoo.com
                        Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
                        Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

                        https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

                        http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Hi Maria

                          Great post. I am asking of Pooka1 (or you) for the VBS facts that would make it true vs all the other studies regarding bracing, spinecor, and other methods.

                          What makes a treatment to be proven by FACT. For example, the studies performed by Rivard/Coillard regarding SpineCor are often considered to not be factual. Part of this is because they are the inventors.

                          And I have seen Dr. Betz's study, that I think is very good, but is it any more factual than Rivard/Coillard's study?

                          You know me, I am just looking for what is best for Syd, and on this forum there is so much talk about FACTs. I am trying to understand what it means. What makes one study factual while another study is not factual?

                          Are all orthopedic studies considered factual?

                          I am with Pooka1 on all of this, let's get to the facts. I have been looking for them for quite some time. But all I find are studies, often by those who have invented the device or method. Or studies by others who are trying to prove another study wrong.

                          Also, on my point of Dr. Betz was about him promoting VBS and doing a study. It had nothing to do with Dr. Betz being the only one that is doing it. You know that I know that very well. It was more on the point that as everyone questioned Rivard/Coillard's study because they are the inventors, does Dr. Betz's study fall into the same category?

                          Please provide advice/direction on what makes one study factual vs another.

                          Thanks
                          Michael

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            scoliosis info

                            Hi Michael,

                            In your quest for scoliosis info, I am wondering if you've come across the Scoliosis Research Society (www.srs.org) and the POSNA (Pediatric Orthopedic Society of North America)? The POSNA has a huge annual meeting and they post instant archives on their website. They have a huge amount of info from many of the top scoliosis names around the country, all of which is free and viewable online. There are several presentations on VBS and fusionless growth modulation there, not just by Dr Betz. I am sure you will enjoy it and find it informative.

                            And PubMed is a bottomless pit of research articles. Just go there and search for vertebral stapling, or JIS, or JIS bracing, etc. You could easily spend all your waking hours reading the articles there. I know I have spent countless hours reading.

                            We all have to form our own opinions about treatment choices for our child. You have repeatedly raised the question about Dr Betz being the only author so far of VBS studies, and you have asked how he is different or any more credible than Rivard. I think the most important difference is that Rivard is making money by selling his brace. Dr Betz and all his Shriners colleagues are not making any extra money from VBS that they wouldn't be making otherwise. They get paid a flat salary from what I understand. So they have no incentive to recommend VBS over another treatment other than the fact that in their professional opinion, it is the best treatment for a particular child's unique situation. Do keep that in mind. There is a huge difference.

                            Good luck, these are certainly fascinating and valid discussion points.
                            Last edited by leahdragonfly; 03-20-2010, 03:49 PM. Reason: typos
                            Gayle, age 50
                            Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
                            Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
                            Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


                            mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
                            2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
                            2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

                            also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Facts

                              An experienced board certified pediatric orthopedic surgeon is best situated to give you facts, not me.

                              There are any number of people on this group who know more about scoliosis and any given sub-topic within that than I do.

                              I did not have to do too much research... my kids had fast-moving curves and there was no choice. In that sense, it was far easier than any JIS case or even other AIS cases to know what to do.

                              JIS is not in the same category as AIS. Fusion, as a rule, is not advisable. So you have to avail yourself of conservative approaches until most growth is done. Then the question is which approaches have shown the most promise. The literature is only so good... a majority of it is false for various reasons not the least of which you can't hardly do a controlled study. This one aspect alone explains why something like bracing has become the standard of care when there isn't a lick of high quality evidence for it.

                              And I have to point out another common misconception... you wrote:

                              For example, the studies performed by Rivard/Coillard regarding SpineCor are often considered to not be factual. Part of this is because they are the inventors.
                              I doubt any surgeon would dismiss the Spinecor literature in any large measure (you said partly) on the basis of it only coming from the inventors. If this brace is easier to wear and was effective, every surgeon would be prescribing it.

                              I suggest they dismiss the literature because they have seen misread radiographs like we have seen on the group and have read the reports of other researchers which showed no efficacy for AIS. I also suggest they may have tried the brace themselves and seen no benefit in the AIS crowd.

                              Simply seeing reports from the inventors would never be sufficient to dismiss a treatment modality to a researcher in my opinion and experience. Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine and that was a big win. Inventors can and have been right.

                              A good test of a hypothesis is to ask if it requires the vast majority of surgeons to be ignorant or nefarious. If the answer is yes then the hypothesis is wrong FULL STOP. Withholding Spinecor treatment if it works would be ignorant or nefarious on the part of most surgeons in the US. So that clearly isn't the case.

                              Note this does not mean all surgeons are honest... some inventors are irrationally exuberant which is just another way to say the literature is GIGO. And they pay a big price in loss of perceived integrity from their peers.
                              Last edited by Pooka1; 03-20-2010, 04:02 PM.
                              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                              No island of sanity.

                              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                              Answer: Medicine


                              "We are all African."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by leahdragonfly View Post
                                You have repeatedly raised the question about Dr Betz being the only author so far of VBS studies, and you have asked how he is different or any more credible than Rivard. I think the most important difference is that Rivard is making money by selling his brace. Dr Betz and all his Shriners colleagues are not making any extra money from VBS that they wouldn't be making otherwise. They get paid a flat salary from what I understand. So they have no incentive to recommend VBS over another treatment other than the fact that in their professional opinion, it is the best treatment for a particular child's unique situation. Do keep that in mind. There is a huge difference.
                                I was going to say exactly that - but I think you said it better, Gayle
                                mariaf305@yahoo.com
                                Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
                                Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

                                https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

                                http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

                                Comment

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