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Thread: Non-Surgical Scoliosis Forum

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    Hello Linda and Pooka1:

    I just wanted to remind you that S4Sarah is a young girl in high school. Perhaps you could use your considerable knowledge to help her develop her critical thinking skills. If I was a young girl reading some of your cold and haughty responses to her enthusiastic, if slightly naive opinions, I'd be in tears. Give your good information, but be kind about it, please!

    B.
    Look, I once tried to help a young girl here develop her critical thinking skills and it went nowhere. At first her mother pulled her off the forum and then the mother sent me a scarcely sane PM on the matter. The girl has since returned but it is pathetic to see her post now knowing what she is being told at home.

    If you teach kids HOW to think you never have to tell them WHAT to think. Logic, the scientific method, intellectual honesty, etc. is the HOW. It all sorts itself out. If kids aren't taught at home from day one to think critically and skeptically then a few exchanges on a forum won't matter at all. Unfortunately. We have evidence.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-23-2009 at 06:25 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    If you teach kids HOW to think you never have to tell them WHAT to think. Logic, the scientific method, intellectual honesty, etc. is the HOW. It all sorts itself out. If kids aren't taught at home from day one to think critically and skeptically then a few exchanges on a forum won't matter at all. Unfortunately. We have evidence.
    I do agree with your points, although I've got to ask - you have EVIDENCE of this? Do you keep up with the literature on child phychology and learning as well??? How do you have time to ride your horses?

    Do you recall learning about the "art of rhetoric" in high school English class? To convince others to come over to your way of thinking, it won't work to communicate in a manner that makes people feel like idiots, which causes defensiveness, and therefore a reflexive desire NOT to be convinced. Note, I did not research that last sentence, I'm going purely by personal knowledge of human behavior. You'll catch more flies with honey and facts instead of vinegar and facts!

    Cheers,
    B.
    Bettina:
    - 34 year old physiotherapist
    - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
    - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    Do you recall learning about the "art of rhetoric" in high school English class? To convince others to come over to your way of thinking, it won't work to communicate in a manner that makes people feel like idiots, which causes defensiveness, and therefore a reflexive desire NOT to be convinced. Note, I did not research that last sentence, I'm going purely by personal knowledge of human behavior. You'll catch more flies with honey and facts instead of vinegar and facts!
    I see that point. But some things are immune to reason and ration.

    There is evidence that accomodationism like I think you are advocating does not work to quash irrationality. For example, some in the scientific community have been trying to work with moderate religionists in a united front to explain to young earth creationists why their position is false. And guess what? The polling percentage of young earth creationists hasn't moved appreciably down in decades. And Dover was only 4 years ago. That's why some folks are trying a new approach to deal with them and it's calling a spade a spade.

    It's worth a try there and here.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  4. #19
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    Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more.

    I think that people are makign a big deal out of one phrase in a post. Phrases can be interperted in many ways and have many different meanings.
    I think I saw that post but I can read them all, no one can there are sooooooo many!

    Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. Try alternative treatments first. There are so amny risks in surgery, (although it can be beneficial I'm not saying it's not) just to prepare for surgery is a task, some people go to see a Psychologist or couselour just to emotionally prepare for it. It is also very expensive and although treatments are improving there still are risks for infection, nerve damage, and many other complications. If it can be avoided it should be.

    I hope I didn't upset you or anything Pooka1, I think that Dr. Kalla's fourm is a good idea and it will benefit lots of people.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4Sarah View Post
    Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more.
    That's good to hear. It's important to educate yourself beyond your education at school. I'm glad you are doing that. Hopefully you are also thinking for yourself and rejecting dogma since you certainly sound capable of it.

    (snip)

    Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways.
    Nobody agrees with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. There is total agreement on that point. That has never been on the table.

    The thing on the table is if there are alternative treatments that are effective or not. And that question can only be answered by evidence, not wishful thinking and not scaring people with misinformation.

    I hope I didn't upset you or anything Pooka1, I think that Dr. Kalla's forum is a good idea and it will benefit lots of people.
    Young women who educate themselves and think for themselves not only don't upset me but give me hope for the future.

    Dr. Kalla, a chiro, can help people explore alternative treatments. But he should avoid posting about surgery and other areas in which he has no training whatsoever... his track record is not good in this area.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 06-23-2009 at 05:52 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4Sarah View Post
    Yeah I'm pretty young, but that doesn't mean my knowledge in big topics is lacking. I'm not crying, I'm not what you would call the average child. I have some very unique talents and interests. I can tell you about all sorts of medical things and Global warming and computers and much more. .
    Hi S4Sarah:
    You seem like an intelligent young lady, and perhaps less sensitive than I was at your age!


    Quote Originally Posted by S4Sarah View Post
    Personally I don't agree with surgery for cases that can be fixed in other ways. Try alternative treatments first. There are so amny risks in surgery, (although it can be beneficial I'm not saying it's not) just to prepare for surgery is a task, some people go to see a Psychologist or couselour just to emotionally prepare for it. It is also very expensive and although treatments are improving there still are risks for infection, nerve damage, and many other complications. If it can be avoided it should be.
    I just have two bits of (unsolicited) advice for you:
    First, always verify the quality of the source of your information before determining if it's really good info.
    Second, the word "fix" may be construed as meaning the same thing as "cure", and scoliosis unfortunately cannot be cured by any means, even surgery. Words like "managed" and "improved" and are more accurate terms.

    Have a great night!

    B.
    Bettina:
    - 34 year old physiotherapist
    - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
    - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    I just have two bits of (unsolicited) advice for you:
    First, always verify the quality of the source of your information before determining if it's really good info.
    Good advice. Also, don't believe anything anyone else says, especially on fora like this. It doesn't matter how smart they sound. Always verify the information yourself INDEPENDENTLY. Some people are simply mistaken but a few are actively trying to lie to you about various matters. Be skeptical as a way to protect yourself from bad information.

    Second, the word "fix" may be construed as meaning the same thing as "cure", and scoliosis unfortunately cannot be cured by any means, even surgery. Words like "managed" and "improved" and are more accurate terms.
    Some cases are thought to be stabilized indefinitely though surgery wherein the patient has the same risk for all future back issues as a non-scoliotic. That would be tantamount to a cure if it pans out.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #23
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    That didn't take long!

    This morning the FixScoliosis forums posted a message about people having trouble getting their confirmation emails. So, I got a log in, and posted to 2 threads. I just logged in to see:

    You have been banned for the following reason:
    No reason was specified.

    Date the ban will be lifted: 06-30-2009, 10:00 PM


    Here's FixScoliosis' response to my comments on the bad info on breaking rods:

    SUMMARY OF BACKGROUND DATA: Using single-rod thoracoscopic anterior instrumentation for thoracic scoliosis, the complications of rod breakage at apex, high rate of nonunion, and resultant loss of coronal and sagittal correction has been reported.

    so 2006 is old for you?

    the above quote IS from SPINE in 2009 and they trying justify new technique development due to previous failure. IF that would not been an issue new development would not have been needed.

    Secondly LindaRacine, as much as you send me PM's on the NSF wanting to restrict my views and moderating my post. I have not logged into the NSF after that, so you may keep the NSF free of content opposing surgery. I will keep this forum free from content categorically promoting surgery.

    You access will be limited here on.

    The only PM I sent to FixScoliosis was to remove his blog link from his signature line. This is a message I send to anyone who has a commercial site in a signature. I am not even allowed to have my own site in my signature, despite the fact that it is not at all commercial.
    Last edited by LindaRacine; 06-23-2009 at 05:57 PM.

  9. #24
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    I am very disappointed in the loss of Fix/Kalla.

    I felt like we had a reasonable chiro on board (not so common!) and that he contributed a lot to this forum.

    I think I misread him a bit.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by S4Sarah View Post
    It's a really nice site, the doctors who started it are really nice too, and knowledgable and cutting edge.

    I don't know fi any of you ahve seen the movie Lorenzo's Oil, but even though it is about ALD the same things are happening with Scoliosis. As it is important to research and test treatments there is a such thing as over testing. In the movie Lorenzo's Oil Lorenzo Odone is dying from a genetic disorder called Adrenoleukodystrophy. When his parents are told there is nothing they can do about it except put him on a diet that doesn't help his parents are not one bit happy. They go out researching with scientists for a treatment and come up with Lorenzo's Oil. They give it to Lorenzo and it works (he ends up living to be an adult, usually boys diagnsoed with ALD live only a couple years passed their diagnosis) however when the parents go to an ALD conference people say "There is not enough research into this we can onyl listen to the scientists." These boys are dying from ALD, they can't wait!!!
    People with Scoliosis can't wait either, some serious curves can cause serious problems and and curves in growing children can get much worse, some higher curves can even progress after growth! We can't keep relying on old treatments that may nto be the best. Treatments like Spinecor have actually been around since the late 1980's and early 1990's. There are many other treatments like CLEAR Institute, different methods, PT, special exercises, etc.
    We need to research better treatments at a faster rate.

    Doctors push surgery, in some rare cases like 100 degree curves it is sometimes the only option. Most cases however can be prevented from getting worse, and corrected without surgery. I like the fourm because I know from toher forms people get on with a 25 degree curve saying "I;m wearing a hard brace I'm afraid I'll ahve to get surgery" It is really discouraging for those people to ahve a thread right below saying "I'm getting surgery next week" I like Dr. Kalla's idea of another fourm. At first I was like "There are so many fourms for Scoliosis!" Then I relized how necessary it is to have a seperate non surgical fourm.

    Dr. Kalla has some great views on Scoliosis treatment, he is very knowledgable and as I said above cutting edge. He posts some very interesting articles a lot of doctors probably never heard of.

    Yeah it is very new and with all starting websites they need time to bloom. They all start out small and grow over the years.
    Sarah - if i were your mom i would be so proud of you! A few comments have been made in this thread about the Art of Rhetoric and Critical Thinking (which some seem to believe is the art of criticizing :-) I see in you wonderful abilities in both areas - making you wise beyond your years. Critical Thinking was my favorite subject in college and i think you will excel in it. Some fun links i found today:

    The Art of Rhetoric
    Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute
    http://www.rpi.edu/dept/llc/webclass...oject1/group4/

    Guide to Critical Thinking
    College of the Siskiyous
    http://www.siskiyous.edu/class/guid5...re%20Week3.htm

    And this one is best! http://www.criticalthinking.org/

    I remember Lorenzo's Oil - great movie. Think i will rent it and re-watch this weekend. All the very best to you in your journey my dear!



    Last edited by mamamax; 06-23-2009 at 07:47 PM. Reason: added link

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