Muscles move the joints, don't they???

[Pooka1]

All I'm saying is that there is credible, scientific evidence from mainstream researchers that shows that physical therapy can be decisively effective for children with Scoliosis. It makes no sense to me that you don't acknowledge the existence of research that you are fully aware of.

I don't understand the research.

If you said that the "jury is still out", or "the longterm effects are unknown" you'd be right. But that's as far as it goes.

That's what I have been saying! Maybe it is style. Please point to a comment in this or some other thread that is not equivalent to the "jury is still out." You will not find me claiming PT can't work at all in principle though I don't think it can work permanently in principle.

Similarly, I don't say bracing doesn't work. I say nobody has shown that it works in a properly designed study and the very existence of the BRAIST study of proof of that statement.

A variety of scientists, physical therapists and kids with Scoliosis have all produced consistent, impressive results with torso rotation strength training.

The neurologist, mom and little girl in this video are very credible. Torso rotation therapy produced the type of results for this little girl that the studies suggest are typical.

Did you note what Samdani said? That is identical in content to what I have been saying. IDENTICAL. I am so not a neurologist but he is.

Look, I have felt for some time you are taking my comments personally. If that's true, I don't think it's appropriate. We are all doing the best we can as lay folks.

[mamamax]

I would love to post a full discussion about why the theoretical and evidentiary basis for exercise is strong, but it will take a bit of time to get the research together and write it.

Hi Betty ~

I think we are very lucky to have a physiotherapist among us who has been able to use physical therapy successfully to manage/treat scoliosis. In the past, it has not been my personal experience to work with a physical therapist as knowledgeable as yourself, the one's i have worked with did not specialize in scoliosis nor did they have any first hand experience with the condition. There is a great need for some specialization in this area and i hope the future brings it.

The standard definition of physical therapy as i understand it is: The treatment of physical dysfunction or injury by the use of therapeutic exercise and the application of modalities that are intended to restore or facilitate normal function or development.

It just makes good sense that exercise modified to address those with the dysfunction of scoliosis, would be of great benefit. And we see this with methods like SEAS and Schroth (developed by a physical therapist). The brace that i wear is designed to provide physical therapy just for the wearing. I don't know how that works - i just know that it does work from first hand observation as i unwind.

I'm currently reading a book written by a physical therapist, Beatrice Woodcock. A book which was highly recommended by the surgeon Aurthur Steindler. In Dr. Steindler's forward to her book, he says something that is as true today as it was in 1947:

We all agree that at least a number of the cases must be fused for lack of a better solution of the problem. It is also generally conceded that under all circumstances, correction or improvement must precede any kind of stabilization whether it be surgical, by fusion, or conservative, by muscle training.

Congratulations on your success Betty! Please .. tell us more as many may benefit from your knowledge and experience.

[LindaRacine]

Pooka1



I'm sure you are a good person and as a parent of a child with Scoliosis I understand the stress first hand. All I'm saying is that there is credible, scientific evidence from mainstream researchers that shows that physical therapy can be decisively effective for children with Scoliosis. It makes no sense to me that you don't acknowledge the existence of research that you are fully aware of.

If you said that the "jury is still out", or "the longterm effects are unknown" you'd be right. But that's as far as it goes. A variety of scientists, physical therapists and kids with Scoliosis have all produced consistent, impressive results with torso rotation strength training.

The neurologist, mom and little girl in this video are very credible. Torso rotation therapy produced the type of results for this little girl that the studies suggest are typical.

Dingo...

You're a smart guy, so I'm having difficulty with why you don't seem to understand that the only proof we have is that there are programs that temporarily reduce some scoliosis curves. If you looked at surgery in that same way, one would say that it's about 100% effective. When we have some long-term followup studies, at least we'll know what the potential is.

Regards,
Linda

[mamamax]

What do we know?

Surgeons have acknowledged since 1947 that both fusion and exercise (specific to scoliosis) can both improve and stabilize curves.

Fusion is not permanent given the number of revisions that are done and the continuing improvement that is made regarding instrumentation ... not one type has been found to be successful 100% of the time and not one surgery results in a fully mobile and flexible spine. Hence, on-going generations of instrumentation.

Exercise and/or PT (specific to scoliosis) is not permanent for the exercise needs to continue in order to stabilize any improvement - yet in many cases improvement can be achieved.

Proof of any of this - well someday someone will compile all the information and statistics, but it sure has not been done yet - not in any manner that would equate to a lifetime for any method.

There are no guarantees - there are only choices .. and as one wise lady once said here - nothing is permanent

[Pooka1]

There are no guarantees - there are only choices .. and as one wise lady once said here - nothing is permanent

To say that nothing is permanent completes misses the fact that different modalities have wildly different track records.

For example, if modality "A" works 99% of the time to cure a condition and modality "B" works 5% of the time, saying neither is guaranteed to offer a permanent solution is really obfuscation at that point.

[mamamax]

Heck Sharon - i was quoting you! And thought it a very wise statement at the time.

Also - the statistics have not formally been gathered, so i'm not sure how they can be quoted??

Saying that neither method can be stated as permanent method of correction is simply - true, as both require maintenance of some kind, including life style changes - as i see it anyway ... my perspective being from one who must make a choice.

[Pooka1]

Heck Sharon - i was quoting you! And thought it a very wise statement at the time.

"Whatever it is, I'm against it!" -- Groucho Marx as Quincy Adams Wagstaff in "Horsefeathers"

I'm Against It

Also - the statistics have not formally been gathered, so i'm not sure how they can be quoted??

Those aren't meant to be exact obviously. But they evoke the general state of affairs we are discussing. The point is that while your statement is technically true, it glosses over the wildly different track records and expected outcomes of different modalities.

Saying that neither method can be stated as permanent method of correction is simply - true, as both require maintenance of some kind, including life style changes

That is incorrect in at least some cases.

[mamamax]

Sharon - You can be so funny!

Yes agree with the last comment, though i think life time trouble free is not all that common.

But really - i do hope Betty will post more about both her personal and professional experience. Would be very beneficial to folks like me.

[Dingo]

scoliosis research

LindaRacine

I'm having difficulty with why you don't seem to understand that the only proof we have is that there are programs that temporarily reduce some scoliosis curves

My beef is that parents and children come to these forums for help. When someone suggests there is no credible scientific evidence that physical therapy can stop curve progression or reduce the size of a curve it's not true. Rotation Therapy is not settled science but it's certainly credible science. A few threads ago Pooka1 suggested that interest in Torso Rotation therapy was on the decline. Once again that's not true and there is no evidence to suggest that it's true. I feel that some people are throwing up random flack for no other purpose than to argue or be discouraging.

[Pooka1]

A few threads ago Pooka1 suggested that interest in Torso Rotation therapy was on the decline. Once again that's not true and there is no evidence to suggest that it's true.

Okay what is the evidence that interest in it is not declining?

For example, surgeons who are doing VBS are increasing in number in real time. That would be a very good indicator that VBS is on the rise.

What you posted, if I recall correctly, was one researcher (not Mooney... don't know if Mooney is a surgeon) who published one study who is no longer pursuing it. I saw no mention of a second orthopedic surgeon jumping on board. If that is incorrect, please edify me.

If torso rotation is on the upswing, that would seem to come as news to Samdani based on his comments.

[LindaRacine]

LindaRacine



My beef is that parents and children come to these forums for help. When someone suggests there is no credible scientific evidence that physical therapy can stop curve progression or reduce the size of a curve it's not true. Rotation Therapy is not settled science but it's certainly credible science. A few threads ago Pooka1 suggested that interest in Torso Rotation therapy was on the decline. Once again that's not true and there is no evidence to suggest that it's true. I feel that some people are throwing up random flack for no other purpose than to argue or be discouraging.

Dingo...

I don't think anyone is arguing (I prefer debating) for any purpose other than to give others a clearer picture. While there is evidence that therapies like torso rotation work temporarily, there is not yet a shred of evidence that the effects will be permanent.

Telling people that something "works" could be very damaging. What if someone is struck by your encouragement, and spends thousands of dollars putting his kid through treatment. If that child's curves increase to a surgical level when treatment is discontinued (or even before), will you feel bad about it? I would. I try to give people realistic expectations so that, if treatment X doesn't work, they will have made the decision to try it based on all available information, not just want someone wants them to hear.

--Linda

[betty14]

Wow, can things can certainly get tense on this forum! I noted that in my readings prior to ever making my first post...but risked it anyway.

I think that a big part of the reason for the tension is that people are angry.

I was angry off and on for years that my body had essentially betrayed me....I would not wear a shirt without a collar for years because of my neck contour. I would not wear a bikini because of the skin folds on my trunk.

I was told that all I could do was "watch and wait", and have an x-ray every year. I felt very powerless. Luckily, during all that watching and waiting, my curves did not progress much, but I got more sore every year.

Luckily, in my health field, I had easier access to information (and was able to understand that information), and I was able to apply my own logic to treat myself. More recently, I've had the best success I've had yet by following the Schroth principles. Now I hate shirts with collars and wear a two piece suit because if I maintain my corrective exercises there are hardly any skin creases!

I am a lot less angry about having this rotten condition; in fact I feel empowered that I can do things to help myself. For me, that is the very best part of an exercise based approach to treat my symptoms, and I totally intend to PREVENT progression when I hit menopause and the onset of degenerative scoliosis...but that's another topic altogether.

Thanks to those of you who have welcomed me to your site. I hope to have some interesting and respectful conversations with you!

B.

[Dingo]

VBS vs. PT

Pooka1

VBS is absolutely on the upswing and I'd consider it for my son. Like most spine surgery VBS is probably very lucrative which explains the broad interest.

---

Mooney is an elderly, retired spine surgeon. He was the first to investigate torso rotation therapy and released the first study 6 years ago.

Dr. McIntire from the University of Texas lead the next two studies.

I talked to one of the scientists involved in the study at the University of Kansas. He said the therapy was effective and another study should be starting soon in Texas.

Rotation therapy is clearly not in decline. It started with 1 man 6 years ago and probably a dozen or more have been involved since that time. Everyone produces the same results. Within a decade it will likely be an established, mainstream therapy.

[Dingo]

Trt

LindaRacine

Telling people that something "works" could be very damaging. What if someone is struck by your encouragement, and spends thousands of dollars putting his kid through treatment.

Torso rotation therapy costs a gym membership. In published studies progression stopped in almost every case and for many children their curve was reduced. If it's not effective a child can always go back to "watch and wait".

there is not yet a shred of evidence that the effects will be permanent

There won't be until several longterm studies have been conducted.
In the meantime Dr. Mooney said that he's followed several children from his first study and it remained effective.

[Pooka1]

Pooka1

VBS is absolutely on the upswing and I'd consider it for my son. Like most spine surgery VBS is probably very lucrative which explains the broad interest.

No it doesn't explain the broad interest. That's really insulting.

The obvious explanation is there is now sufficient evidence to justify other surgeons learning the technique and more insurance companies getting on board.

Most surgeons actually care about their patients I suspect. You obviously don't agree.