Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

[mamamax]

My question was : say someone, anyone is incapacitated for long period of time - muscles atrophy. Are you saying that those with spinal fusion will be immune to the effects of that?

Your answer was:

Yes.

So I can see were I may be confused!

In speaking of older adults - not children - muscle atrophy is a concern for everyone ... i do not believe that senior citizens are an exception just because they are fused.

[Pooka1]

My question was : say someone, anyone is incapacitated for long period of time - muscles atrophy. Are you saying that those with spinal fusion will be immune to the effects of that?

Your answer was:



So I can see were I may be confused!

In speaking of older adults - not children - muscle atrophy is a concern for everyone ... i do not believe that senior citizens are an exception just because they are fused.

I am NOT saying muscles won't atropy in fused people of any age nor that is isn't a concern. You are having multiple Emily Litella moments.

I am saying that muscle atropy won't affect a solid surgical fusion whereas it WILL affect an exercise-related correction.

The COBB angle will NOT change in a surgical fusion due to muscle atropy whereas it WILL change with exercise-related corrections. This is obvious to anyone who understand what fusion is.

I think you understand this.

[mamamax]

I am NOT saying muscles won't atropy in fused people of any age nor that is isn't a concern. You are having multiple Emily Litella moments.

I am saying that muscle atropy won't affect a solid surgical fusion whereas it WILL affect an exercise-related correction.

The COBB angle will NOT change in a surgical fusion due to muscle atropy whereas it WILL change with exercise-related corrections. This is obvious to anyone who understand what fusion is.

I think you understand this.

Sharon - I asked a question - you answered ... yes.

And now you accuse me of multiple moments?

Good grief (and bolderdash)!

Also cobb angle after fusion can and does unpredictably increase - not in every case - but often enough that it is a concern.

http://www.pssjournal.com/content/2/1/25

What I think I understand is this - it is just good old fashioned horse sense that exercise is good for everybody.

[Pooka1]

Any time someone cites that Weiss "debate" "article" I am going to assume they are conceding my point.

Word to the wise.

Note the article was written in 2008 and Weiss cites stats from 1961 to 1976 (on the topic of fusion failure).

Seem intellectually honest to you? Maybe it does.

Or maybe we are on Candid Camera.

[Pooka1]

For the honest folk out there... the state of the art now is that ~95% of the kids who are fused need no physical restriction to get a good fusion.

That should inform you as to what the expected pseudarthrosis rates are now (as opposed to historically using older hardware).

I don't know the situation with adults but I bet it's much better than in the 60s and 70s. Note to Weiss and Mamamax.

[mamamax]

Assume nothing .. many of his references come right up to 2008.

I know you don't like Weiss - he does shoot straight from the hip.

A little like you actually ;-)

Thing is Sharon - there are no long term studies for the most recent surgical methods - it is a little early to deem them complete success.

[Pooka1]

Assume nothing .. many of his references come right up to 2008.

Not the ones that are relevant to your point. Are you following along here?

It's like you say "A" and I say "Not A, but B" and you say, "But what about C?" where "C" is completely irrelevant.

[Pooka1]

Thing is Sharon - there are no long term studies for the most recent surgical methods - it is a little early to deem them complete success.

What's Schroth's excuse then? They have been at it for over 90 years?

[mamamax]

Not the ones that are relevant to your point. Are you following along here?

It's like you say "A" and I say "Not A, but B" and you say, "But what about C?" where "C" is completely irrelevant.

Yes .. I am following along just fine. And while I do hope for the best ... there are no long term studies that can claim the most recent surgical methods are a complete unquestionable success. We will know more 30 years from now.

[mamamax]

What's Schroth's excuse then? They have been at it for over 90 years?

Schroth Studies and where they are found:

http://www.schrothmethod.com/studies.html

and some quoted material:

Spinal fusion surgery does not eliminate the need for physical therapy to correct patients' posture and maintain stability above and below the fused segment. Nine exercises are described and depicted.

Lehnert-Schroth, Christa. "Physiotherapy for scoliosis patients following spinal fusion surgery." Krankengymnastik 48 (1996): 212-219.

For an English translation of the original German article (PDF), see the page "What can patients do?" at Christa Lehnert-Schroth's personal website: http://www.schroth-scoliosis-treatment.com

[Pooka1]

Schroth Studies and where they are found:

http://www.schrothmethod.com/studies.html

and some quoted material:

[I]Spinal fusion surgery does not eliminate the need for physical therapy to correct patients' posture and maintain stability above and below the fused segment.

How the heck would they know? Is that a joke?

I guess my daughter is the only patient in the world who doesn't need to do a lick of exercise to have normal posture and a straight spine. I'll have to remember to get her autograph.

I, on the other hand, have to work very hard at good posture, much to the dismay of my horse who wishes I would get it already. ()

I have concluded we are at cross purposes. I don't know what your purpose is.

I am guessing by your reference to two surgeries and likely a third that someone told you a long time ago that you would need an anterior/posterior procedure that might need to be extended at a later date.

That is no reason to be afraid of surgery... there are people here who have all that.

I wish you would get an opinion or five from a top scoliosis surgeon who specialize in mature spines.

I suspect many, if not most, of your thoughts and recollections from the past will go straight out the window.

Good luck. I'll look forward to hearing about it if you do get some straight dope on your present surgical options.

[Pooka1]

I know you don't like Weiss - he does shoot straight from the hip.

By the way, that is not why I take issue with him. And shooting straight from the hip implies lack of thought prior. He knows exactly what he is saying. Is that another attempt to claim surgeons are idiots?

Can you guess the real reason I take issue with that article?

[mamamax]

Sharon -

How would the Schroth folks know that physical therapy would help to stabilize the spine above and below fusion? Through the many years of experience and a review of the published literature. Blowing discs above and below fusion levels is not a thing of the past.

Your daughter is young and I'm happy for her success - with age, exercise may prove beneficial to maintain that success - worth looking into?

Your horse may appreciate it if you took some Alexander method posture lessons?

We do have opposing opinions. My purpose - is no more than Battina's: to stay as upright, strong and pain free as I can, as long as I can.

And again - I do not think surgeons are idiots - Weiss is a surgeon, one who bty endorses surgery upon occasion.

I am not afraid of surgery. Truly I've had all the "opinions" I need to have - I choose a different path until such time that methods in my age group are more refined. If I can live the rest of my life without it - that would be good. But if you can refer me to the top surgeon in the US for the aging, I'll keep the info in my back pocket ;-)

In the mean time, I'm doing darn well with present treatment - thank you, and all the best to you and yours as well.

[Pooka1]

Your horse may appreciate it if you took some Alexander method posture lessons?

You aren't the first person to suggest that.

[mamamax]

And probably won't be the last