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Thread: Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

  1. #661
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    Oregon
    Posts
    25
    thanks for the replys,

    I think it is the TR that makes the difference too but the I have to admit the night time brace forces the curve back the opposite way so I cant help but
    to think that it may be playing a part in this too.

    Scoliosis is so frustrating because some things work for some and not others.

    We had the brace tech guy do a little work on it yesterday as there was a spot where it was rubbing on her too much.
    I asked him if he saw any difference between all day braces and night time braces and if they always worked etc.

    He said he sees the night time one work better than the day time one but he also said they seem to work for some but not all. But the one thing
    he was quite sure about is compliance is the biggest factor for success that he sees.
    His son has scoliosis and a brace didnt work for him but the he said most nights he would hear the sound of the brace hitting the floor when his son took it off.
    As hard as he tried he just couldnt get his son to wear it enough.
    The good part with Nalina is that she sleeps very soundly and goes to sleep easily, so she doesn't fight the brace and it stays on at least 10 hours a night.

    We do give her a night off now and then for camping, sleep overs etc but not much. maybe 6 or 7 nights in the last year.

    So I guess I have to think the brace may be of some help too, but again I feel the TR is the biggest factor going.

    I have thought many times about abandoning the brace and just doing the TR but I am afraid to take the chance.

    thanks again for the support

    fahsai (Tim)

  2. #662
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    ny
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    1,805
    Hi Tim,

    I'm no doctor, but for what it's worth I agree with everything you said. My theory is that since we don't know what works for who, and when, if your child can tolerate something like night bracing, you have nothing to lose. I also agree that it can (for some kids) be as effective or moreso than a Boston brace worn all day. Some doctors seem to feel that way too. I like the occasional break from the brace for special occasions. The TR could very well be the main factor for her success (certainly makes sense in theory) so kudos to you and your daughter for putting the time in on that. Sometimes treating scoliosis is a bit like walking a tightrope, figuring out what to do, but you seem to be doing an excellent job, as the results reflect!
    mariaf305@yahoo.com
    Mom to David, age 17, braced June 2000 to March 2004
    Vertebral Body Stapling 3/10/04 for 40 degree curve (currently mid 20's)

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/ScoliosisTethering/

    http://pediatricspinefoundation.org/

  3. #663
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Oregon
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    25

    EVEN BETTER NEWS for Nalina

    I had forgotten to ask for a copy of the Xrays and doctors findings at our/her visit last week.

    Nalina and I both had somehow thought the doctor said she had 27 top and 28 bottom curves.

    Today I got the CD with the Xrays and the doctors report.

    To my/our great surprise, we were wrong. the report shows her top curve to be 28 degrees and the bottom one only 20 degrees. When I read that I jumped for joy......

    I would type the whole report but that would be too long but the good part is as follows:

    The Cobb angle measured from end plate of T5 to inferior endplate of T11 measures 28 degrees on the current exam compared to 30 degrees in the last exam.
    The lumbar curvature is convex to the left centered at L1-L2 with the Cobb angle measured from the superior end plate of T12 to the inferior end plate of L4 measures 20 degrees on the current exam compared to a previous measurement of 28 degrees...

    Whoooo Peeeee.

    sorry for the misinformation in my last post but Nalina and I both thought we heard him say 27 and 28.......

    Agan, not sure exactly what is doing the most help but we will continue on our path and let you know as things progress.

    thanks again for all the support and information, without you guys I would have had no idea what to do.

    fahsai(Tim)

  4. #664
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
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    Tim, that sounds like the radiologist's report if it is different from the surgeon's numbers. Is it signed by a radiologist?

    When I finally got all the radiographs for both girls, there were plenty of different measurement from what the surgeon told us. Those are the radiologist's measurements. This is just inter-operator variability and in some cases choosing different vertebra I suspect.

    You might want to ask you surgeon about the large difference in the lumbar though. That seems outside the inter-operator variability. Does it look noticeably smaller than the thoracic curve? If so then the surgeon probably just misspoke.

    The other thing is maybe this means the lumbar is compensatory since it responded so well to PT. That would be excellent if true. There are testimonials about PT reducing compensatory curves, sometimes by a lot. Did the surgeon say if the lumbar was structural or compensatory?

    Still all good news which is what matters.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 10-07-2014 at 08:01 AM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  5. #665
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    25
    hi Pooka

    I always forget to ask the surgeon which curve is compensatory and which is structural. I will try to remember to do that next time.

    The report was verified and signed by a doctor but he is not the surgeon and not the radiologist.
    He was in the room with the surgeon at the last visit. I assume they looked at the Xrays and talked it over.

    I can see the difference in the curves from the original Xrays a year ago and the ones last week. Its tiny but I can see it.
    It makes me feel good to see there is some progress that I can even see with my own eyes. I feel like all the exercise and the brace are doing
    some good. Of course like any parent I am hoping for miracles but I am happy to see some decent improvements.

    fahsai(Tim)

  6. #666
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    NC
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    Maybe they discussed it but I don't think it is right to relay such a large difference in the lumbar measurement to patients and parents if so. They should have worked that out among themselves first.

    With my girls, it's pretty clear that the radiologist and surgeon didn't discuss measurements among themselves because in some cases one said there was progression and the other said there wasn't.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 10-07-2014 at 07:55 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  7. #667
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Oregon
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    25
    It is quite possible that we misunderstood what he was saying. Nalina and I discussed it and we are not sure what we actually heard.
    There is alot of nervousness on my part for sure and hers too I think when we go in to see them.

    I may try to call the doctor and see what he says.

  8. #668
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Oregon
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    1,158
    Hi,

    Great news about your daughter … keeps up the good work. I am sending you a PM also with an Oregon question.
    Last edited by leahdragonfly; 10-08-2014 at 07:58 AM.
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  9. #669
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063
    Scott update

    Scott had his yearly x-ray at 9:30am this morning.

    These are his results so far.
    2008 - Age 5 - 11 degrees
    2009 - Age 6 - 14 degrees (or thereabouts)
    2010 - Age 7 - 18.6 degrees (Torso Rotation and computer measurements began here)
    2011 - Age 8 - 20.2 degrees
    2012 - Age 9 - 20.0 degrees
    2013 - Age 10 - 19.0 degrees
    2014 - Age 11 - 21.0 degrees

    His doctor called it stable and the x-ray looked like last year's twin.

    Over the past year most of the time we did his exercise once per week. During summer vacation he missed for one month straight. I don't think we have increased the weight he rotates in about a year. His top weight is 42 pounds. Put simply we've been slackers and TRS still appears to work. However I'm disappointed we didn't get improvement. So this year we'll push it harder and see if that makes a difference on next year's x-ray.
    Last edited by Dingo; 10-15-2014 at 10:43 PM.

  10. #670
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    25
    Dingo
    Great to hear that Scott is still holding is own. It's always good to hear that TR is doing the trick.

    thanks again for posting all the info and research that you have done in the past. Without it I never would have known about TR at all.

    We seem to average about every 5 days. Even though we do it at home it is still tough find time with busy kids.
    I try to get Nalina to increase weight or reps but sometimes I feel like just doing TR at all helps so I dont force her to push it too hard.

    Between sets of TR she does bent over rows with 7lb dumbels, and side bends with the same 7lb dumbels too.
    At the end she does two sets for 15 roman chairs with no weights.

    She swims twice a week and I have it in my mind that any exercises that strengthen her core help her swimming and her back too.

    Nalina still wears the night time brace and since we have seen some improvement we will continue to do both, (although I suspect it is mostly the TR).
    I'm afraid to stop either one, so we will continue on the same path for now.

    take care

    fahsai

  11. #671
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAHSAI View Post
    Great to hear that Scott is still holding is own. It's always good to hear that TR is doing the trick.

    thanks again for posting all the info and research that you have done in the past. Without it I never would have known about TR at all.
    You're too kind I'm just glad my thread helped somebody else!

    Quote Originally Posted by FAHSAI View Post
    We seem to average about every 5 days. Even though we do it at home it is still tough find time with busy kids.
    I try to get Nalina to increase weight or reps but sometimes I feel like just doing TR at all helps so I dont force her to push it too hard.

    Between sets of TR she does bent over rows with 7lb dumbels, and side bends with the same 7lb dumbels too.
    At the end she does two sets for 15 roman chairs with no weights.

    She swims twice a week and I have it in my mind that any exercises that strengthen her core help her swimming and her back too.
    According to Dr. Douglas Kiester, the creator of the internal Scoliosis brace the more exercise a child gets the better. I believe him. His theory is that exercise stretches the ligaments around the spine which creates "slack" which in turn allows for proper growth. Stretching has been tried for at least 100 years and unfortunately it doesn't work. Strength training, specifically TRS appears to work. If TRS was a medicine or surgical procedure pharmaceutical companies would be competing with each other to get it to market. Fortunately for us it's practically free, it works and it is available right now. 8-)

  12. #672
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    19
    Hi i searched through the pages but i cant seem to find where the exercises are?

  13. #673
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    228

    these are the esxercises we are using

    scoliosisbro,

    It looks as though Dingo has 43 pages of messages--it is a lot to look through, but I do remember him telling what he does with his son several times over the years; if you keep looking you will find his protocols. Cybex & RC

    These exercises have been tried on teenagers who have yet to reach full maturation; I haven't seen anything discussing adults. There are very few studies looking at the results, no long term studies that I am aware of at this time, and the few studies that are available contained a small number of participants. A number of the teens did obtain curve reduction. The idea/ hope is that if the exercises are continued through maturation, their existing curves will "hold" throughout adulthood. My daughter did something similar to Dingo. BackStrong VARC & MedX CTR. The protocols below are from Mooney's research.

    A Mom

    All motions are slow and controlled. No swinging, jerking, or surprises!

    BACKSTRONG Variable Angle Roman Chair: Arms behind back @ 75˚, 20 repetitions, rotate through progressively more difficult arm position and angle
    Sequence:
    One set of 15-25 to fatigue on BackStrong (20 in a perfect world)
    Turn feet "in" (difficult to maintain, so need to be observant)
    Back arch up, NOT flat back up
    Started at 75 degrees, hands behind back & continue this position until able to do 20
    Stayed at 75, hands cross sternum & continue this position until able to do 20
    Stayed at 75, genie arm cross & continue this position until able to do 20
    Stayed at 75, hands behind head & continue this position until able to do 20
    Then, move to 60 and repeat the process
    Continue through 45-- 30—15—0

    MEDX CORE TORSO ROTATION Keep weight the same for each side, rotate to one side with peg in 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 20times, then repeat for other side--increase weight rather than repetitions

    Eccentric: Repeat above except use fewer repetitions (adult rotates seat, user controls movement back to starting position, repeat carefully making sure user has control before letting go of seat)
    Details:
    One set of 15-25 each direction (Alternate the order Left-Right or Right-Left on each successive workout) to fatigue (20 in a perfect world)

    Starting weight: 1/3 of body weight OR lift maximum weight and use 50 percent of that amount

    ROM (range of motion) setting dependent on ability: (0-5 available, many use 3)

    Increase weight in increments of 5% of current weight

    FORGOT TO MENTION: All torso rotation equipment is not equal, the only two brands that I have ever heard obtained any type of positive results are MedX and Cybex.
    Last edited by AMom; 08-05-2015 at 01:38 PM. Reason: brand names

  14. #674
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    1,976
    Interesting, but I wish to know if it would be good also in adults.
    I don't know if the outcomes are because stretching the soft tissues or because strenghtening them. I don't know what I may do to know that.

  15. #675
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,297
    I hope the people using PT to control scoliosis continue to update the group. Several have fallen off the radar.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

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