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Thread: Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

  1. #631
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hilliard, Ohio
    Posts
    20

    Stable x 1 year now!!

    Hi A Mom!

    Anna had her appt. this morning and the doc said her curves are stable, and to continue doing what we are doing! Now we can come in every 6 months instead of every 4 months! He also said that as far as progression goes, she was at the greatest risk this past year.

    Regarding how the numbers on our Cybex machine translate into degrees, I don't know. I will have to ask our PT. He doesn't ever come up to the gym floor w/ us anymore, so I never think to ask! I will let you know when I find out!

    Instead of describing how my daughter holds her arms during the workout, I decided to send you a video clip instead. This is the identical machine she uses, and she executes the exercise in a similar fashion as shown. (Her routine is: 15 reps right/15 reps x 4 sets. She does 2 of the sets at 35lbs and the other 2 at 30 lbs.) I can't believe my sweet, delicate daughter has gotten so strong...I tried a couple of reps and it is not easy!


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A2vz...eature=related

    Hope this helps!

    I am looking forward to hearing if your PT has any new information on the subject!
    We are very fortunate to have a great PT as well! Thanks for sharing!
    Daughter dx'd 3/10 at age 11: T13 L21
    Progressed to T21 L27 in 12/10
    Initiated TRS and nightly melatonin in 1/11
    "Stable" at T20 L24 since 4/11

  2. #632
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    228

    Congratulations Anna's Mom

    Good Morning,

    My daughter asked me to send yours' a message, "Hi Anna, I am 12 and I have scoliosis too. Do you want to be pen pals?" --If you are okay with that, they may PM back and forth.

    Hooray! One year stable is a good beginning, especially if her doctor believes she has progressed through PGV. The next hurdle will be to see if 1) she is willing to continue the workouts and 2) the curves remain stable through the second year. Did he mention her Risser sign or acetabular triradiate cartilage? Adding those two pieces of info to her age and onset of menarche will give you a fairly good idea of how much growth she has left. He probably didn't consider either one, most of the time an estimate based on age provides enough info in this situtation, but I have to ask, "just in case" more info is available.

    Do you have a “long term” plan with regard to the PT?

    Thank you for the link. I looked at the video clip and then at another one of a female doing the same workout. It seems as though the male had the pads higher on his shoulder/arms (different seat height/ body proportions) than the female which caused their arms to be at a different angle. In relation to her torso, would you say your daughters' arms are at a 90° angle, < 90°, or > 90°? Is her torso perpendicular to the floor, or does she lean into the shoulder pads during the workout? In relation to her torso, what is the angle of her thighs? Are her feet flat on the platform? --I am trying to understand how she fits into the machine. The equipment is usually designed for adult males which have different body proportions than adult, and adolescent females. (It seems that the hand holds should be able to slide closer & farther from the body and the foot rests should be able to raise and lower to meet the smaller body frames of preteens & young teens. Do you think designers listen to crazed parents???)

    I would end with good wishes for the holiday, but know you don't need them!

    A Mom

  3. #633
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hilliard, Ohio
    Posts
    20
    Hi again AMom!

    That is so sweet how your daughter wants to be pen pals! I will talk to my daughter about it...she is not home right now. Anyway, in regard to your questions. Our doc did not mention anything about Risser sign or acetabular triradiate cartilage. He did say at our Aug. visit that there were indications from the x-ray that her growth period was going to be slowing down soon. I didn't ask any further questions. I guess because she is remaining stable, we just take things as they are and continue w/ what we are doing exercise wise. I will have to watch her closely tomorrow at the gym to effectively answer your questions about her arms and legs. I do know that she was previously leaning into the should pads and just recently I have been trying to get her to scoot up on the seat so she is sitting up straighter and more perpendicular to the seat. I thought it might engage the lumbar region better and that is the area of her largest curve. The machine seems to fit her just fine. She is 5'4" and doesn't seem to have a problem w/ the machine being too big for her.

    As far as her compliance w/ the workouts, she has no choice!! Lol! The gym is a mile from our house and I drive her there twice a week. Period. Actually, she knows she needs to do this and is thankful to not be wearing a brace. Even though she is not always happy to go, she goes.

    Our long term plan is to continue w/ this until skeletal maturity. My husband and I don't want to just quit the TRS cold turkey. We will probably keep going for a while after that. Not sure how often or for how long. We only see the PT periodically for evaluation of endurance and strength (timed planks, etc.). We are signed in to the gym each week by him, but he doesn't go up w/ us to use the machines.

    Have a great day!
    Daughter dx'd 3/10 at age 11: T13 L21
    Progressed to T21 L27 in 12/10
    Initiated TRS and nightly melatonin in 1/11
    "Stable" at T20 L24 since 4/11

  4. #634
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    228

    Similar Goals

    Anna's Mom,

    Our long term plan is to continue until skeletal maturity as well, then reduce to 2x per week for a year, & then reduce to 1x per week until she leaves for college. Everything is x-ray dependant.

    I think my daughter does the workouts because she chose the treatment so she has a high buy-in. That does not mean she doesn't complain sometimes.

    Our PT comes by 1x per month, as much to see if my daughter is ready to progress on the additional stretches & exercises she assigned as to check positioning in the equipment. She does a complete assessment & writes a report every 6 months. I am grateful she is willing to come to our home--it's not as though we can bring the equipment into someone's office!

    5'4"--that is a great height w/ regard to equipment. My daughter has always been smaller than her peers. I think she will end up being 5'5" to 5'7", but right now she is 4'7"--3" below the minimum height for both pieces of equipment she is using. (The Cybex also has a minimum starting height of 4'10".) She started catching up with her peers last year (gained 2") and is still going. She has almost outgrown the tops, jeans, & boots we purchased six weeks ago--I doubt she'll be able to wear anything by the time January rolls around (we bought a little large, but obviously NOT LARGE ENOUGH.) If you want to make an investment $$$, buy stock in teen clothes because our family is personally keeping the industry afloat this year.

    I looked at all the questions I asked and realize they were excessive. Whatever you are able to share is fine. I do not want to be the cause extra work for you.

    Relax, ignore the over-excited mom (me) and enjoy the glow.

    A Mom

  5. #635
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hilliard, Ohio
    Posts
    20
    That is awesome that you have a PT who comes to your home! How convenient to have a machine right in your home as well! Our gym is so close to our home that it is super convenient for us. The only thing we have to work around are the PT office hours (they must sign us into the gym). It hasn't been too much of a problem. I just feel blessed to have a gym close by w/ the piece of equipment we need! A couple of times a year we are only able to make it in 1x/week because of schedules, camps, vacations, etc. I wasn't too concerned about this after speaking w/ a PT clinic in CA that does TRS and finding out that they decrease frequency of visits to once a week after a period of time. I have read other studies that estimate the effects of TRS to last approximately 4 months after discontinuing treatment. This helps me not to stress too much when life happens!

    The fact that your daughter is growing rapidly and not progressing to me is a very good sign!! When we started TRS one year ago, my daughter was probably at or exceeded the minimum height requirement for the equipment. That's why fitting into the machine has never been a problem for her. She is taller than her mother now (I'm only 5'2" )!
    Daughter dx'd 3/10 at age 11: T13 L21
    Progressed to T21 L27 in 12/10
    Initiated TRS and nightly melatonin in 1/11
    "Stable" at T20 L24 since 4/11

  6. #636
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Cary, NC
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    105
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Dr. McIntire will dope-slap me if I'm wrong but Kiester is saying the ligament is too tight, tethering the spine resulting in rotation and curvature. All these things appear to inure toards making the ligament even more resistant, more tethering, inducing MORE rotation and curvature, etc. etc.. It all is at odds with Kiester and his notions about TRS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dingo View Post
    Pooka1

    The research I posted above shows that exercise makes healthy ligaments larger, stronger and stiffer. This combination of stretching and strengthening is clearly a double positive.

    Stronger and stiffer ligaments doesn't necessarily mean shorter or more rigid. Increasing range of motion i.e. stretching, while increasing strength i.e. strength training, could/would allow the ligament to increase in length while maintaining or even increasing its strength. The theory of the tight posterior ligament means that it's just potentially too short not that it's too strong or stiff.

  7. #637
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    Jan 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin_Mc View Post
    Stronger and stiffer ligaments doesn't necessarily mean shorter or more rigid. Increasing range of motion i.e. stretching, while increasing strength i.e. strength training, could/would allow the ligament to increase in length while maintaining or even increasing its strength. The theory of the tight posterior ligament means that it's just potentially too short not that it's too strong or stiff.
    OKay then.

    I just wonder why this idea of a tight ligament hasn't been proven or disproven by now. Can it be surgically lengthened/weakened so that it doesn't tether the spine? In horses, they actually cut ligaments in the stifle and that solves certain problems. I wonder if this ligament can be cut without harm if it is shown to be the problem. And what's with all the other abnormal findings if it's really just a short ligament? Coincidence?

    Is Kiester the only person talking about ONE particular ligament CAUSING scoliosis. Why hasn't he shown it yet?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  8. #638
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    Mar 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    OKay then.

    I just wonder why this idea of a tight ligament hasn't been proven or disproven by now. Can it be surgically lengthened/weakened so that it doesn't tether the spine? In horses, they actually cut ligaments in the stifle and that solves certain problems. I wonder if this ligament can be cut without harm if it is shown to be the problem. And what's with all the other abnormal findings if it's really just a short ligament? Coincidence?

    Is Kiester the only person talking about ONE particular ligament CAUSING scoliosis. Why hasn't he shown it yet?
    As far as I can tell, Dr. Kiester doesn't claim that the ligamentum flavum CAUSES scolisois. He says he has proven that it is the MECHANICAL reason for the curve to develop.

    The ligamentum flavum's marked elasticity serves to preserve the upright posture, and to assist the vertebral column in resuming it after flexion. The elastin prevents buckling of the ligament into the spinal canal during extension, which would cause canal compression. It seems hard to believe that it could just be severed and do anything valuable to anyone's spine.

  9. #639
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    Mar 2009
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    1,090
    Congrats for achieving stable curves with torso rotation gals! That's great news. :-)

    Keep up the good work!

  10. #640
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
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    Scott update!!!

    Scott just had his 9 year old checkup and his back remained stable at 20 degrees after a year of growth. WE ARE OVERJOYED!!!!

    2008 - Age 5 - 11 degrees
    2009 - Age 6 - 14 degrees (or thereabouts)
    2010 - Age 7 - 18.6 degrees (Torso Rotation and computer measurements began here)
    2011 - Age 8 - 20.2 degrees
    2012 - Age 9 - 20.0 degrees

    We began torso rotation just before Scott turned 7 and his back has remained stable since. Amazingly enough it still worked despite the fact that he didn't properly fit into the machine until he was 8.5 years old. The upshot is that he's only been doing the exercise with correct form for the past 6 months. We only do it twice per week and it takes a matter of minutes. Whatever TRS does, IT WORKS!

    I'm eternally indebted to Dr. Vert Mooney for discovering this exercise and Dr. Kevin McIntire for doing the followup research.
    Last edited by Dingo; 10-08-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  11. #641
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    reno,nevada
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    Dingo

    So far so good, keep up the good work.

    How often are you shooting x-rays?

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 62, the new 63...
    Pre surgery curves T70,L70
    ALIF/PSA T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by titaniumed View Post
    Dingo

    So far so good, keep up the good work.

    How often are you shooting x-rays?

    Ed
    Hi Titaniumed!

    Scott only gets one x-ray per year at his checkup. He's been essentially stable for 2 years so his doctor was happy. He mentioned the danger zone during puberty. But I'm confident that TRS works. I think it will work better as Scott gets older because his muscles will grow faster and larger as he approaches puberty.

  13. #643
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    reno,nevada
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    That’s why I asked....The growth curve is coming soon....

    I remember having problems doing situp’s in the 5th grade. It seemed that I was pulling up crooked or off to the side. I was around 10 years old.

    I didn’t say anything and when I was 16, was surprised with my scoliosis diagnosis.

    We have our fingers crossed for you and Scott, and hopefully in a few years, you will be posting results that we all want to see.

    Ed
    49 yr old male, now 62, the new 63...
    Pre surgery curves T70,L70
    ALIF/PSA T2-Pelvis 01/29/08, 01/31/08 7" pelvic anchors BMP
    Dr Brett Menmuir St Marys Hospital Reno,Nevada

    Bending and twisting pics after full fusion
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showt...on.&highlight=

    My x-rays
    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...2&d=1228779214

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/attac...3&d=1228779258

  14. #644
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    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
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    Yep, I'll be back every year after Scott's checkup. Maybe I'll pop in early if a new story about TRS comes out. But otherwise I'm putting Scoliosis behind me. I wish I never heard of it. 8-)

  15. #645
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063

    Scott update

    I just added a Scott update to the Research forum.

    Here is a link.
    Torso Rotation Therapy - How Scott is doing update

    It includes information about Scott's workout on the Cybex.

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