Page 9 of 50 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 741

Thread: Torso Rotation Strength Training for Scoliosis

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    288
    Dingo.

    I realize that this thread has morphed into something weird, but I wanted to let you know my opinion.

    OK OK. . . breathe. . . keep reading. . . .

    I think that what you are doing with your son will help him. Blacking out his room and encouraging exercise are both healthy habits to develop in a young man. I support your right to seek treatment for your son in any way that you feel is appropriate. Its your right as a father to do so. You don't have to defend what you think is the right thing to do.

    I wish you and your family the best.

    p

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    494
    Quote Originally Posted by mamamax View Post
    No curve progression in Schroth patients 3 years after treatment
    This preliminary study begun in 1989 included 181 scoliosis patients, average age 12.7 years, average Cobb angle curvature 27 deg, average risser sign 1.4, average follow-up 33 months. Results of the preliminary study were compared to natural history as known from literature. For the worst-case analysis additionally a questionnaire was sent to the non-repeaters treated at the same time (1989 and 1990) as the patient sample, using essentially the same inclusion criteria. Results showed no curve progression (increase in curvature of 5+ deg/yr). The lack of progression of the 181 patients from the preliminary study and the 116 questionnaire patients together exceeded natural history even if all drop-outs were considered failures. Weiss HR, Lohschmidt K, el-Obeidi N, Verres C. "Preliminary results and worst-case analysis of in patient scoliosis rehabilitation." Pediatric Rehabilitation 1997 Vol. 1(1): 35-40.

    Schroth reduces abnormal curves by over 30% and increases lung capacity
    Out-patient Schroth therapy of 50 patients at the Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation School, Hacettepe University, Ankara, Turkey, reduced average Cobb angle from 26.1 to 17.85 deg in one year. Vital capacity increased by 420 ml. Otman S, Kose N, Yakut Y. "The efficacy of Schroth's 3-dimensional exercise therapy in the treatment of adolescent idiopathic scoliosis in Turkey." Saudi Medical Journal (9/2005), vol. 26(9):1429-35.

    Book dispels common misconception that exercises do not help correct scoliosis
    Despite nearly 90 years of Schroth therapy in Germany, conventional Anglo-American medicine still commonly asserts that physical exercises have no effect on scoliotic curvature. In her book, Dr. Martha Hawes reviewed the pertinent clinical, peer-reviewed literature in English and demonstrated conclusively that there is no scientific basis for this belief. The articles sometimes referred to as sources for this claim do not in fact make and support it with evidence. In contrast, Hawes found a growing literature in English testifying that properly designed exercises can have a positive effect on scoliotic curves. She devotes pages 99-105 of her book to a discussion of the Schroth program. Martha Hawes, Scoliosis and the Human Spine, Tucson, West Press, 2002.

    Reference: http://www.schrothmethod.com/studies.html

    Mamamax, I dont intend to discourage you, I really dont. But consider this text from an old AETNA insurance policy statement.

    Surface electrical muscle stimulation has been shown to be effective in reversing or arresting progression of spinal curvatures in adolescents with idiopathic scoliosis. Brown et al (1984) reported the findings of a multicenter study on the use of night-time lateral electrical surface stimulation (LESS) for the treatment of juvenile or adolescent idiopathic scoliotics (484 girls and 64 boys, mean ages of 12.8 and 13.9 years, respectively). Only individuals with rapidly progressing scoliosis and at least 1 year of growth remaining were selected for this trial. The mean treatment time was 12 months, and the longest follow-up was 51 months. During the initial 6 months of therapy, a pre-treatment curvature progression rate of 1 degree/month was reversed to a reduction rate of 0.5 degree/month. Overall, 395 (72 %) patients had either reduced or stabilized their scoliosis. Seventy-one (13 %) patients had experienced temporary progression with subsequent stabilization and treatment continuation, while 82 (15 %) patients dropped out because of progression of their conditions. The major problem with LESS was skin irritation. The authors concluded that LESS treatment is a viable alternative to bracing for patients with idiopathic scoliosis.

    Dutro and Keene (1985) performed a literature review on surface electrical muscle stimulation in the treatment of progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis. Patient selection criteria for studies reviewed were as follows: (i) Cobb angle of 25 to 45 degrees as indicated by radiographic studies, (ii) documented history of progression, (iii) minimum of 50 % correction on forced lateral bending, and (iv) minimum of 1 year of bone growth remaining. The authors concluded that electro-muscular stimulation is equally effective as bracing in treating progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis -- progression was arrested in 60 to 84 % of treated curves. For juvenile scoliosis, if treatment begins early enough and progression is not too severe, a curve cannot only be arrested, but reversed. Surface electro-muscular stimulation can also be employed to halt progression while patients await surgery.


    I am quoting this to not show that Schroth doesnt work. I am quoting it to remind all that scientific views change (for anyone who stumbles on to this post: electrical stimulation for scoliosis has since been shown to be worthless).
    Why did AETNA evaluate the evidence and agree to pay? I dont know. We can be pretty sure though that the two studies cited by them have some flaws. Maybe, just maybe, there is something similar going on with Schroth, I dunno, I never really looked into it. Maybe I should, but the US orthopaedic medical establishment HAS looked into it and it is my understanding that it is largely dismissed (as they now dismiss electrical therapy).
    But, Dingo started this thread to discuss torso rotation strength training. I wonder, if/how that differs from Schroth therapy? Is it basically the same thing (except Dingo's excerice is essentially free) or is it based on a different concept.

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063

    why I like torso rotation

    concerned dad

    Is it basically the same thing (except Dingo's excerice is essentially free) or is it based on a different concept.
    One reason I like Torso rotation is because the therapy is so simple that it's easy to test. Scroth may be very effective but it's complicated, time consuming and there will always be a lot of noncompliance. I'm not saying it's ineffective I'm just saying that it's very difficult to do research on.

    My take away from the torso rotation studies is that generally speaking strength training probably works. However once you move beyond an easy therapy like torso rotation it's almost impossible to test. I'm not an expert on Scroth but if it builds muscle I would guess that it helps.

    Here is some evidence that muscle mass and physical size helps protect kids from curve progression.

    Relation between adolescent idiopathic scoliosis and morphologic somatotypes.

    Subjects with progressive adolescent idiopathic scoliosis are significantly less mesomorphic than control girls.
    A) Large framed girls progress less than thin framed girls.
    B) Adolescent boys progress far less than girls.
    C) Juvenile boys and girls have roughly the same chance of progression.

    I assume that all of these kids have the same nervous system disorder. One obvious explanation for the difference in progression risk for A and B is that muscle mass is protective. Juvenile boys and girls are roughly the same size and not surprisingly they have the same progression risk.
    Last edited by Dingo; 07-22-2009 at 09:24 AM.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063

    link dump thread

    PNUTTRO

    Actually you are correct. I was going to use this thread to store torso rotation links as they popped up. Hopefully they'd help another desperate parent, maybe years from now. I guess it grew beyond that.

    I wish you and your family the best.
    I appreciate that.

    BTW, you forgot the fish oil. On the off chance that inflammation plays a role in progression I'm trying to cover that base too. If it doesn't help his Scoliosis at least it might boost his IQ.

    Since we are on the subject of family here is a video of Scott from about a week ago. He had just taught himself to do flips so this is one of his first. Unlike his dad this kid is a natural athelete.
    Last edited by Dingo; 07-22-2009 at 12:34 AM.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,317
    If Dingo wants to preserve this thread as a master thread for torso rotation then I suggest Linda consider removing everything else or at least the low/no value posts and the penetrating glimpses into the obvious like my exchange with Mamamax.

    I would leave the PT posts from Betty14 as they are relevant to all PT.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063

    no I don't mind

    Pooka1

    If Dingo wants to preserve this thread as a master thread for torso rotation then I suggest Linda consider removing everything else or at least the low/no value posts and the penetrating glimpses into the obvious like my exchange with Mamamax.
    No, I don't mind. And it's not my place to say what should be posted. I was a web developer for many years in a previous life. Someday I'll stick all of the torso rotation links in a website for posterity.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    84
    The torso rotation machine is great because it strengthens the back muscles the the muscles can hold the spineup better, (hmmmmm could the msucles be part of the problem?????) If there is evidence to that it would bring research a huge way to finding the exact causes of Scoliosis and help them develop new treatments.

    Electrical treatments don't work, my GP and I were talking about different treatments and he told me about electrical stimulation tretaments (I never heard of them until then) and he thought they would work originally when he read about them because it seems like they would, but then he read an article about how Electrical Stimulation does not work.

    Dingo-AHHHH that's sooooo cool! I'm a web developer in training

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    60

    The answer on this:

    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    Elise Browning Miller (Yoga for Scoliosis) has reduced her curves significantly with daily yoga exercise. I've seen the before and after myself. I can't remember the degrees, but we're not talking a small curve. Elise feels the improvement is permanent. Obviously, I don't agree. I don't know how many hours each day she exercises, but it's a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Okay that's three.
    Just curious... does she have some rational reason why she thinks the improvement is permanent or is it wishful thinking?
    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    When I challenged that I thought her curve would reappear if she ever stopped exercising, she did not respond.
    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    Regarding the above exchange:

    Linda, since you do not know how many per day she exercises, how do you know it is "a lot"? A person who enjoys working out may find an hour per day little, whereas a sedentary person may find 10 minutes per day too hard to manage. Is there any way for you to find out?

    Quote Originally Posted by LindaRacine View Post
    It's how she makes her living. I would estimate that it's on the order of 40 hours a week.Sharon can obviously speak for herself, but I suspect her point is that it's unlikely that the most of us are willing to spend 40 hours a week for the rest of our lives, to retain any correction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Welp, that beats Hawes. And here I was impressed with Hawes doing it for 4 hours a day for several years.

    Some of us non-yoga instructors have families and non-exercise-related careers.

    Newsflash for certain exercise professionals.


    Quote Originally Posted by betty14 View Post
    Hi Linda:

    I wonder if you would be willing to ask her a two questions if it's not too much trouble, to get the facts straight?

    1. how many minutes per day, or hours per week does she spend doing exercise to specifically self-treat her spine?

    2. based on her history, how much does she feel is the minimum that she needs to exercise per day to maintain her status.

    If you'd rather not, that's OK. In that case, perhaps you could give me contact info?

    Thanks, B.

    Well, I never heard back on this from Linda, so I contacted Elise Browning Miller, who authorized her assistant to reply to me.


    Dear Bettina,

    This is ***, Elise's assistant. Elise is currently away but she reviewed your email and asked me to respond. We saw the thread on the forum and would like to clarify - in her 20s when Elise discovered that she had scoliosis and she found Iyengar yoga she did quite a lot of yoga. As her body restructured she continued practicing and teaching throughout the years. Presently she does around 1 hour of yoga a day of her own personal practice. She does teach a lot the rest of the week but when teaching she is not working on her poses and back rather her students', so that would not be considered a personal practice. She also tries to incorporate swimming into her weekly busy schedule, so she might go swimming once a week.


    It is hard to say regarding the minimums because it all depends on the severity and progression rate of scoliosis, plus students with major pain tend to practice more often to get rid of the pain and those without (maybe even though they need it more) they practice less. Daily practice is preferable and would lead to best results, but even practicing couple of times a week is better then doing nothing.

    As I mentioned, usually Elise works a lot and more often with students in the beginning and as the body realigns it can be less, but there must be dedication, otherwise it won't work. Yoga gives a unique all around approach to your body and mind and only after practicing it for some time you can judge it's effectiveness (like any other therapy or exercise). It is a lifelong support for those with scoliosis and whatever exercise they do for their backs - it must become part of their routine.


    Bettina.
    Bettina:
    - 34 year old physiotherapist
    - main curve of 3 is mid-thoracic convex, approx 37 d.
    - my goal: to stay as upright, strong and painfree as I can, as long as I can.

  9. #129
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,251
    Thank you Bettina - for writing her and posting her response. Good information!

  10. #130
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    105
    Thank you Bettina... more motivation to bust out that old Yoga for Scoliosis DVD and maybe try taking it seriously again...

  11. #131
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,063

    One mom posts progress

    turtlelover posts progress using a Cybex torso rotation machine.

    Torso Rotation

    Her first X Ray read a COBB angle of 9 degrees. Mild, but noticeable to her, painful, and in need of therapy.
    Her second X ray was the last week in June COBB angle measured 11 degrees.
    We returned home to North Carolina after a year of sabbatical in the first week of July and I bought a Cybex torso rotation machine used, in Florida, for $500 and had it shipped U SHIP for $200 and she has worked out on it every day since.
    Yesterday we got another X ray. COBB angle 6 degrees. I know it is within measurement error, I know the x rays were on another system (Michigan versus Detroit), but I can look at them and see they are better
    Last edited by Dingo; 11-05-2009 at 10:30 PM.

  12. #132
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    1,251

    Balance Board

    Hi Dingo :-)

    Your upthread balance board link is no longer working.

    Is this the one you use?
    http://gofit.net/balance-board.php

  13. #133
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    1,158
    [QUOTE=Dingo;85450]turtlelover posts progress using a Cybex torso rotation machine.


    Dingo, I doubt that someone with a 9 degree curve that is very painful has true structural scoliosis (and actually by definition they don't). It sounds much more likely that this represents a functional scoliosis due to pain from another source, or even the curve is an unrelated, incidental finding in someone with pain from another source. But I know you are desperate to show that torso rotation works for some reason, so you will take whatever you can find.

    And BTW, why does it have to be a Cybex machine specifically? Do you sell these or something?

    You could really benefit from taking some college courses in epidemiology and statistics, so you could comprehend why a study sample size of 20 subjects can never be generalized to the entire population.
    Last edited by leahdragonfly; 11-27-2009 at 11:40 AM. Reason: typo
    Gayle, age 50
    Oct 2010 fusion T8-sacrum w/ pelvic fixation
    Feb 2012 lumbar revision for broken rods @ L2-3-4
    Sept 2015 major lumbar A/P revision for broken rods @ L5-S1


    mom of Leah, 15 y/o, Diagnosed '08 with 26* T JIS (age 6)
    2010 VBS Dr Luhmann Shriners St Louis
    2017 curves stable/skeletely mature

    also mom of Torrey, 12 y/o son, 16* T, stable

  14. #134
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    9,317
    Quote Originally Posted by leahdragonfly View Post
    (To Dingo)
    You could really benefit from taking some college courses in epidemiology and statistics, so you could comprehend why a study sample size of 20 subjects can never be generalized to the entire population.
    I made this identical comment when he applied countrywide(!) statistic to a group of 41 children...

    http://www.scoliosis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9632
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  15. #135
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    143

    Weakened torso muscles, progressing scoliosis

    I just read this old thread and I need to add my experience to the mix. I am 57 and have never had surgery. Years ago I went to a gym and did a machine that I sat on and pulled two stabilized handles towards me. It felt great, strengthened my back symmetrically, and helped me "hold myself up." My scoliosis was progressing very, very slowly. It was about 55 degrees by then.

    In 2007 I went to Clear Institute in Minnesota. I've been reluctant to post my experience other than in private messages, since I didn't want to discourage people who may be helped there, but I believe that the program, aside from costing an amazing amount of money for a very long time. actually hurt my back and sped up the progression.

    Dr. Woggon believes that to correct scoliosis you need to restore the natural curves in the neck and the lower back. Therefore the treatment focuses on these areas with no attention to the muscles of the torso. I was given two foam rolls for under my neck and my lower back when I slept. When I expresses concern that the muscles of my middle back were "giving way" to the curve in that position with no support, I was told that I shouldn't worry about it.

    As part of the treatment, weights of about 20 pounds were placed on my rib hump. When I left the program after two weeks of these applications twice a day for 20 minutes while on a stretching table, the hump was slightly diminished. But it soon began to go all the way over to the right side, the concave ribs became more concave and I could feel and see my torso rotating more.

    This is all to say that over the course of my life living pain free with scoliosis, working and raising two sons, I believe that the single biggest factor for me was having strong torso muscle to maintain good posture. I would think that any program that includes this could be very useful.

    If anyone would like more information about Clear Institute, please contact me privately.

    All the best to all,

    Joy

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •