Setting the Record Straight

[mamamax]

Hi:
I neither used the words "permanent," nor "can" in my posting, but I did hear these words somewhere! The brace I purchased was called a Dynamic Scoliosis Correction Brace, or sometimes the SpineCor Dynamic Brace.
This is before the backpedding began.
NMFB

Hi NFMB ~

Your saying that yours was called a Dynamic Scoliosis Correction Brace, got my curiosity - and i did come across an article from 2006 in the American Academy of Orthotists & Prosthetists (written by an orthotist from the UK). In this article the orthotist refers to Spinecor as being a Dynamic Corrective Bracing system. Paragraph Two:

Flexible Dynamic Corrective Bracing (SpineCor®1) is principally prescribed for Idiopathic Scoliosis patients with a Cobb angle between 15° and 50° and Risser sign 0 to 2. The brace is fitted on the patient in accordance to a sub-classification of the traditional SRS2 definition of curve types. The brace is prescribed to be worn by the patients 20 hours per day until they have reached maturity, with radiological evaluations performed prior to and immediately following the fitting of the brace, and every 4 to 6 months thereafter.

Kind of reads as if at that time, in the UK at least, that this is how the brace was referred to. Terminology can change throughout the years - the field of Information Technology (IT) is a good example of that (many terms changing throughout the years) . Were you fitted around that time frame?

Anyway - a very interesting article:
http://www.oandp.org/publications/jop/2006/2006-14.asp

[LindaRacine]

Linda - did i use the word can or did i use the word may [there is a big difference] and did i use the word "permanent"?? - if so, i was in error and fall on my sword!! If that is a verbatim quote - all i can say is that it may have been in the heat of great (and emotional) debate (when possibly even over-medicated), resulting in a poor choice of words. It is not like me to use the word can, in such a statement - more like me to use the word may (in opinionated speculation), and very unlike me to use the word permanent. If i did ... my apologies to you, and to the entire world. Thought we cleared this up a while back - maybe not, hope it is clear now.

Certainly no medical professional (chiropractor or otherwise) has ever ever ever led me to believe that any treatment would effect permanent and lifelong cobb angle reduction (many orthopedic specialists have suggested, for me, that no treatment may result in the possibility of life long progression and also suggested that fusion from top to bottom of my spine would also not guarantee permanent cobb angle reduction (explaining to me that curvature may progress even following fusion, requiring revision) - nor has any orthopedic specialist ever guaranteed that surgery, for me, would eliminate pain). So there we have it - the rather sad truth about scoliosis .. there are no guarantees.

I've never been confused between adult and adolescent curvatures. Adolescent spines are still growing - Adult spines have ceased to grow, however they may continue to progress in curvature.

It was a direct quote from one of the posts that you deleted, but which Pam saved offsite.

[mamamax]

Boy those were the days .. i have those and will check the context - as i said, if it is a verbatim quote then i fall on my sword and apologize to the entire world.

In the mean time, I would also agree Linda, that any reduction in cobb angle by any means is going to require some kind of care and/or maintenance. How much care and/or maintenance - certainly becomes a consideration when making individual treatment choices. For me 30 minutes a day is doable, preferably something more like three times a week would be better (and that would be similar to general health care guidelines in terms of exercise). Some people are far more active spending an hour or more at the gym daily - not for this kid, though i do admire those who can.

Hypothetically - IF at the end of a two year protocol with my PRB, i were to experience some cobb angle reduction (as some adults are doing) that resulted in significant pain reduction - would i sacrifice 30 minutes a day to maintain it .. yes, i would - gladly. Postural rehabilitation is an interesting thing, in the SEAS report below, the Italians establish: A scoliosis curve is made of different components: the structural bony and ligamentous components, and a postural one that counts up to 9 degrees in children, while it has not been quantified in adults. What is the quantification for adults i wonder, and how may knowing that help establish treatment towards pain reduction.

Martha Hawes (the research scientist and scoliosis patient) did in fact engage in an intense program that few would be able follow in order to achieve her 40% cobb angle reduction (significance being that it could even be done). Her greatest reductions came about under the care of an osteopath. What her maintenance program is i don't know but i do intend to buy her book (third edition available at NSF) as well as one i came across recently regarding Schroth. You got to speak to her? I'm pea green with envy!

Spinecor is not the average brace as it incorporates physical therapy just in the daily wearing. From the manufacturer's web site: Physical therapy is not a necessity in the Spinecor program (Spinecor itself may be considered a physiotherapy 20 hours out of 24. This comes from introductory comments about the brace in regards to treatment - and this statement is general information that would apply to either child or adult as the statement is based upon the brace design.

All of this facinates me, and along with another article written by both Martha and Joe O'Brien (below) .. i just find myself thirsty for everything i can learn - i do stay up late reading a lot considering what combination of programs may get me best through the years to come as maintenance (toward pain reduction) will certainly be an issue.


References:

Spinecor Introduction (Manufacturer's Web Site):
http://www.spinecorporation.com/Engl...troduction.htm


Adult scoliosis can be reduced through specific SEAS exercises: a case report. Scoliosis. 2008 Dec 16;3:20.
Negrini A, Parzini S, Negrini MG, Romano M, Atanasio S, Zaina F, Negrini S.
ISICO (Italian Scientific Spine Institute), Via Roberto Bellarmino 13/1, 20121 Milan, Italy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
(type in Scoliosis SEAS - publication #2)

The Transformation of Spinal Curvature into Spinal Deformity
Hawes MC, O'brien JP.
Scoliosis. 2006 Mar 31;1(1):3.
PMID: 16759413-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
(type in Martha Hawes in the search - Publication #9

A Retrospective Study of twenty three adults treated for scoliosis using the Spinecor Orthosis.
Deutchman, G.; Lamantia M.,; Indelacato J.; Raykhman M.:
From 4th International Conference on Conservative Management of Spinal Deformities Boston, MA, USA. 13–16 May 2007.
Scoliosis 2007, 2(Suppl 1):S23doi:10.1186/1748-7161-2-S1-S23
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/2/S1/S23

Review of the Literature: Non - operative Scoliosis Treatment
Marc J. Lamantia, D.C., and Gary A. Deutchman, D.C.
TAC, Cover Stories , Volume 31, Issue 4
Published: The American Chiropractor (2009)
http://theamericanchiropractor.com/a...115&category=8

[LindaRacine]

Boy those were the days .. i have those and will check the context - as i said, if it is a verbatim quote then i fall on my sword and apologize to the entire world.

http://www.box.net/shared/zr0akpi0l4

IF at the end of a two year protocol with my PRB, i were to experience some cobb angle reduction (as some adults are doing)

Where's the proof that any adult wearing a Spinecor brace has had a permanent reduction in curves? You may not claim such things without proof. Next time, your post will be removed.

Martha Hawes (the research scientist and scoliosis patient) did in fact engage in an intense program that few would be able follow in order to achieve her 40% cobb angle reduction (significance being that it could even be done). Her greatest reductions came about under the care of an osteopath.

Again, there's zero proof that the reduction she got from her intensive programs held when the program was ceased. If the reduction was permanent, I'm fairly certain we would have heard of it by now.

You'll love her book, she spends her time attacking all things surgical.

[mamamax]

I did make that comment - it is the one and only time i ever used the word permanent in relation to cobb angle reduction in an adult spine.

it was in answer to the following statement:

While Spinecor may help some adults manage pain, there is no way ANY brace will correct a curve in a skeletally mature adult. It's impossible. In brace corrections are not permanent. Sorry.

My response begins:

I would like to say that Spinecor has proven the exception to the rule regarding bracing in that it does effect change in the adult mature spine - perhaps not always and perhaps not in every case (just as surgery is not the answer in every case), but certainly more than not for those adults who follow protocol and for those without extenuating circumstances of some kind - there is change, and sometimes the change is impressive. So there are exceptions to every rule - and this exception is only coming to light over the last five years.

In the next paragraph i make the offending statement. I meant to use the word impressive (not permanent) as in the first paragraph above. Made a mistake - sorry. What else can i say?

I was thinking (but not typing):

It is also a fact that the Spinecor brace can effect correction and often times that correction can be impressive. Of course today i would not use the word correction, i would use the term cobb angle reduction.

As for studies showing cobb angle reduction, there are few as research takes time money and willing participants (five years is not a lot of time in the research world) - here is one:

A Retrospective Study of twenty three adults treated for scoliosis using the Spinecor Orthosis.
Deutchman, G.; Lamantia M.,; Indelacato J.; Raykhman M.:
From 4th International Conference on Conservative Management of Spinal Deformities Boston, MA, USA. 13–16 May 2007.
Scoliosis 2007, 2(Suppl 1):S23doi:10.1186/1748-7161-2-S1-S23
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/2/S1/S23

I did make an error in writing - does anyone else ever do this, make an error?

[LindaRacine]

I did make that comment - it is the one and only time i ever used the word permanent in relation to cobb angle reduction in an adult spine.

it was in answer to the following statement:

While Spinecor may help some adults manage pain, there is no way ANY brace will correct a curve in a skeletally mature adult. It's impossible. In brace corrections are not permanent. Sorry.

My response begins:

I would like to say that Spinecor has proven the exception to the rule regarding bracing in that it does effect change in the adult mature spine - perhaps not always and perhaps not in every case (just as surgery is not the answer in every case), but certainly more than not for those adults who follow protocol and for those without extenuating circumstances of some kind - there is change, and sometimes the change is impressive. So there are exceptions to every rule - and this exception is only coming to light over the last five years.

In the next paragraph i make the offending statement. I meant to use the word impressive (not permanent) as in the first paragraph above. Made a mistake - sorry. What else can i say?

I was thinking (but not typing):

It is also a fact that the Spinecor brace can effect correction and often times that correction can be impressive. Of course today i would not use the word correction, i would use the term cobb angle reduction.

As for studies showing cobb angle reduction, there are few as research takes time money and willing participants (five years is not a lot of time in the research world) - here is one:

A Retrospective Study of twenty three adults treated for scoliosis using the Spinecor Orthosis.
Deutchman, G.; Lamantia M.,; Indelacato J.; Raykhman M.:
From 4th International Conference on Conservative Management of Spinal Deformities Boston, MA, USA. 13–16 May 2007.
Scoliosis 2007, 2(Suppl 1):S23doi:10.1186/1748-7161-2-S1-S23
http://www.scoliosisjournal.com/content/2/S1/S23

I did make an error in writing - does anyone else ever do this, make an error?

Regarding the study that you reference... .For the record, these changes are while the patient is still being treated. They got, at best, about 15 degrees of correction. I guess I shouldn't complain about my high insurance premiums, so long as people have access to expensive treatment that results in 15 degrees of improvement, and which will be lost when the treatment is discontinued.

[mamamax]

Regarding the study - kind of looks like its two years into treatment? Anyway - treatment for adults has only been used for the last five years .. suspect we will see more in the near future. A five year study of the same adults should be due 2011 or so? It will be interesting what may be provided over the next decade.

We were talking about the logic of care and/or maintenance earlier (of any treatment resulting in cobb angle reduction) ... certainly this, in my case will be factored into the equation two years down the road. I don't know what other adult Spinecor patients may do - but i will be finding out.

I'm not too sure what to think about the insurance comment, i never think in terms of what my premiums may afford for others - not much i would think, or not enough to gripe about if others are finding remedy.

You know, earlier you made a statement about Martha Hawes: You'll love her book, she spends her time attacking all things surgical. I think Martha is just looking for different options - like myself and many others here in the non surgical threads. Many of us require that option - it is good that there are those researching such things for those of us that require (or even just desire) non surgical remedy. Certainly we all collectively need all the help we can get.

[MissEmmyF]

You know, earlier you made a statement about Martha Hawes: You'll love her book, she spends her time attacking all things surgical. I think Martha is just looking for different options - like myself and many others here in the non surgical threads. Many of us require that option - it is good that there are those researching such things for those of us that require (or even just desire) non surgical remedy. Certainly we all collectively need all the help we can get.

Yeah, thank goodness for that...you certainly won't find any kind of help (or even positive reinforcement) on this forum for exploring anything non-surgical.

[LindaRacine]

Hi MissEmmyF...

If you'll look at all of the posts, I think you'll see support for alternative treatments in terms of pain management. It's only when the false claims of curve improvement come into play, where you'll see debate.

Regards,
Linda

[Qikdraw]

Yeah, thank goodness for that...you certainly won't find any kind of help (or even positive reinforcement) on this forum for exploring anything non-surgical.

I don't think thats a fair statement. There is a lot of support for whatever helps you out, and each person responds differently. What people do pounce on is misinformation, and there are reasons for that. People searching for answers deserve to get all the information they can to help them out, however we have to make sure that information is as truthful as it can be. The only attacks on treatments like Schroth (for example) are in the wild claims some of its practitioners have made, not all of them to be sure, but they are out there. Also the concern that once you stop the treatments your pain/curve may come back, but people are supportive that if it works to get rid of your pain, then you should do whatever works, and that there is support for.

Each of us is different and we will all respond to different treatments. We also have different views on treatments, I don't like Chiropracters at all, I think they are 90% cheats and liars, but then I've had first hand experience in chiros telling me they could have fixed my spine without surgery, and if you look at my before xrays you'll see that is completely wacky. On top of that my wife did insurance defence and dealt with a lot of chiro reports where all it is is padding the bill so the settlement is bigger. However if someone gets pain reduction from a chiro then go for it, just find a good one that won't lie to you.

Just my two cents...

Brad

[Pooka1]

Yeah, thank goodness for that...you certainly won't find any kind of help (or even positive reinforcement) on this forum for exploring anything non-surgical.

If you think this then you haven't been following along.

[MissEmmyF]

i understand what you're saying, but my overall feeling after being on this forum for a couple months now is it's waaaaaay more supportive to people going through surgery rather than people (like me) who are exploring alternative methods for pain control. someone going through surgery is met with a lot of "good lucks" etc., whereas someone exploring a viable alternative method usually gets talked down to, asked purposely demeaning questions, or doesn't get responded to at all, etc. it's happened to me before.

the general consensus on here is not "let's be supportive of this person trying an alternative method"...it's more along the lines of "let me bark 5 trillion facts as this person to make sure they know they aren't going to succeed with their alternative method"...even though each person's idea of "success" is different.

i'm not saying surgery isn't the only answer in many cases. i just think it seems like the ONLY answer based on this forum.

[MissEmmyF]

If you think this then you haven't been following along.

i've been following along just fine, thanks.

[Pooka1]

i'm not saying surgery isn't the only answer in many cases. i just think it seems like the ONLY answer based on this forum.

Whether or not surgery is the only answer either is or isn't based on fact and experience. It has ZERO to do with the wish of some patients to avoid it at all costs.

The reason there is push-back on alternative treatments is that there is more charlatanry in the field than legitimate approaches. I feel sorry for the legitimate purveyors of PT and such who do not promise the impossible but instead are realistic with folks. And I feel sorry for the patients who have to search through the haystack of nonsense to find the few legitimate needles.

Surgeons take an oath to be ethical. I doubt many of these alternative pushers do.

[MissEmmyF]

Whether or not surgery is the only answer either is or isn't based on fact and experience. It has ZERO to do with the wish of some patients to avoid it at all costs.

The reason there is push-back on alternative treatments is that there is more charlatanry in the field than legitimate approaches. I feel sorry for the legitimate purveyors of PT and such who do not promise the impossible but instead are realistic with folks. And I feel sorry for the patients who have to search through the haystack of nonsense to find the few legitimate needles.

Surgeons take an oath to be ethical. I doubt many of these alternative pushers do.

i fully agree with everything you said except i don't agree that all surgeons take an oath to be ethical.