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  • #76
    The word permanent (in terms of cobb angle reduction for any treatment) is definitely misleading.

    The Spinecor manufacturer does state that some may experience small cobb angle reduction (they are very conservative in their wording). And as some have in fact done this, i would not consider the statement misleading. No one in the Spinecor network (so to speak) has ever used the word permanent to my knowledge. As study continues i believe what is looked for (and will continue to be looked for) is stable maintenance of such reduction when it occurs (talking 25 years and more down the road).

    Such things (cobb angle reduction without surgery) while not the norm, does exist. Example Martha Hawes (fellow scoliosis patient and research scientist) 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. Even she does not use the word permanent.

    Reference:

    Reversal of the signs & symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods
    Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.

    Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8.
    PMID: 15457757

    This report describes improved signs and symptoms of previously untreated symptomatic spinal deformity in an adult female diagnosed with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis at the age of .7 years. Current treatment initiated at the age of forty included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). A left-right chest circumference inequity was reduced by >10 cm, in correlation with improved appearance of the ribcage deformity and a 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. The changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed.

    PMID: 15457757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by mamamax View Post
      The word permanent (in terms of cobb angle reduction for any treatment) is definitely misleading.

      The Spinecor manufacturer does state that some may experience small cobb angle reduction (they are very conservative in their wording). And as some have in fact done this, i would not consider the statement misleading. No one in the Spinecor network (so to speak) has ever used the word permanent to my knowledge. As study continues i believe what is looked for (and will continue to be looked for) is stable maintenance of such reduction when it occurs (talking 25 years and more down the road).

      Such things (cobb angle reduction without surgery) while not the norm, does exist. Example Martha Hawes (fellow scoliosis patient and research scientist) 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. Even she does not use the word permanent.

      Reference:

      Reversal of the signs & symptoms of moderately severe idiopathic scoliosis in response to physical methods
      Hawes MC, Brooks WJ.

      Stud Health Technol Inform. 2002;91:365-8.
      PMID: 15457757

      This report describes improved signs and symptoms of previously untreated symptomatic spinal deformity in an adult female diagnosed with moderately severe thoracic scoliosis at the age of .7 years. Current treatment initiated at the age of forty included massage therapy, manual traction, ischemic pressure, and comprehensive manipulative medicine (CMM). A left-right chest circumference inequity was reduced by >10 cm, in correlation with improved appearance of the ribcage deformity and a 40% reduction in magnitude of Cobb angle, which had been stable for 30 years. The changes occurred gradually over an eight-year period, with the most rapid improvement occurring during two periods when CMM was employed.

      PMID: 15457757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

      Martha Hawes' reference to 30 years refers to the amount of time her curve had been stable prior to starting her exercise program, not the amount of time she has maintained correction. She has not published anything that shows that she has been able to maintain the correction.
      Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
      Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by mamamax View Post
        Agree Q-D .. what difference could it possible make .. find my mind racing around the universe on that one and remain ever clueless.

        Also agree that wild claims, for any treatment, are red flags.

        Did an Internet search for "permanent" "correction" and "spinecor". Could not find any web pages (including my provider's) that made any statement to the fact that treatment was a permanent correction. I did find many providers taking more cautionary viewpoints: i.e, it was too early to pass judgment on this. So, if anyone finds one please post it - you know, i'll be writing them a nice letter!

        Adult curves, i am learning more about them than i wish (#4 & #10):
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?t...Joseph%5Bau%5D

        Noticing too, that when i read studies, i have to give them second and third looks - after seeing just what i want to see

        Maxene...

        So, were you mistaken when you previously stated "It is also a fact that the Spinecor brace can effect correction and often times that correction can be permanent," or were you again confused about the difference between adults and adolescents? Can you now confirm that no chiropractor has led you to believe that the changes you're seeing might be permanent?

        --Linda
        Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
        Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
          Martha Hawes' reference to 30 years refers to the amount of time her curve had been stable prior to starting her exercise program, not the amount of time she has maintained correction. She has not published anything that shows that she has been able to maintain the correction.
          I was nothing short of shocked to note that Hawes is in fact a full professor at an accredited university.

          The reason I was shocked was because of the patent nonsense she wrote relating scoliosis to other things like breast cancer... I'm not remembering the specifics here. Maybe I'm confusing her with someone else?

          I can't find the full text of that article but would like to know:

          1. What was the starting angle?
          2. What was the ending angle?
          3. How long has the reduction lasted after 2002?
          4. Is there radiographic proof of starting and ending angle?
          5. How real is the reduction given you can apparently reduce a curve at least 11* just by standing funny?
          6. what ongoing treatment does she need in order to maintain the 40% reduction (if she is still maintaining it)?
          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

          No island of sanity.

          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
          Answer: Medicine


          "We are all African."

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Pooka1 View Post
            I was nothing short of shocked to note that Hawes is in fact a full professor at an accredited university.

            The reason I was shocked was because of the patent nonsense she wrote relating scoliosis to other things like breast cancer... I'm not remembering the specifics here. Maybe I'm confusing her with someone else?

            I can't find the full text of that article but would like to know:

            1. What was the starting angle?
            2. What was the ending angle?
            3. How long has the reduction lasted after 2002?
            4. Is there radiographic proof of starting and ending angle?
            5. How real is the reduction given you can apparently reduce a curve at least 11* just by standing funny?
            6. what ongoing treatment does she need in order to maintain the 40% reduction (if she is still maintaining it)?
            Hi Sharon...

            I'm not sure what you mean about what she wrote in terms of a link between scoliosis and breast cancer. (There actually is a link, but it's almost certainly due to an increased amount of radiation exposure from xrays.)

            I have never seen anything beyond what she wrote in the foreward to her book, and what's in this abstract:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

            If anyone has access to the full paper, I'd definitely be interested in seeing it.

            In regard to reduction of curves without surgery, I think I mentioned a few weeks ago, that there's a yoga instructor (Elise Browning Miller) who has reduced her curves significantly (I've personally seen the before and after, although I've never seen her xrays). She has maintained the correction for many years. But, this is a woman who practices many hours of yoga every day. I believe that if she were to stop the yoga, her curves would return to their original magnitude (or potentially worsen).

            --Linda
            Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
            Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

            Comment


            • #81
              Linda, I believe it was Tonibunny who critiqued the claims Hawes made. They were wacky... I'll try to find that post. I think I'm misremembering the breast cancer thing.

              I found the 2002 paper by Hawes and Brooks:

              http://www.scoliosis.org/resources/s...on_spr2002.pdf

              Haven't read it yet.
              Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

              No island of sanity.

              Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
              Answer: Medicine


              "We are all African."

              Comment


              • #82
                Thanks Sharon. Unfortunately, the full text doesn't really give us a lot more information. I had some phone conversations with Martha around the time that she was publishing her book. She described the treatment as "intensive," but wouldn't discuss any other specifics. (She was trying to convince me that scoliosis curves could be permanently reduced. As you can imagine, she didn't get very far.)

                --Linda
                Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                  Thanks Sharon. Unfortunately, the full text doesn't really give us a lot more information. I had some phone conversations with Martha around the time that she was publishing her book. She described the treatment as "intensive," but wouldn't discuss any other specifics. (She was trying to convince me that scoliosis curves could be permanently reduced. As you can imagine, she didn't get very far.)

                  --Linda
                  In the paper she claims to have done 4 hours of therapy a day for several years.

                  I find that incredible.
                  Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                  No island of sanity.

                  Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                  Answer: Medicine


                  "We are all African."

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    4 hours a day for the rest of one's life? I guess there might be some who think that's doable. I'm not one of them.

                    --Linda
                    Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                    Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                      4 hours a day for the rest of one's life? I guess there might be some who think that's doable. I'm not one of them.

                      --Linda
                      No she only did the 4 hours/day from 1993 to 1997.

                      "From January 1993, one of the
                      authors (WJB) provided instruction,
                      support, and evaluation of posture and
                      movement. Sustained pressure applied
                      directly to muscle spasms, or manual
                      traction to stretch the torso,was used
                      by the patient to relieve pain as needed
                      ( 4 h daily through 1997).These methods
                      were supplemented with massage
                      therapy monthly in 1993 and 1994."
                      Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                      No island of sanity.

                      Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                      Answer: Medicine


                      "We are all African."

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by LindaRacine View Post
                        Maxene...

                        So, were you mistaken when you previously stated "It is also a fact that the Spinecor brace can effect correction and often times that correction can be permanent," or were you again confused about the difference between adults and adolescents? Can you now confirm that no chiropractor has led you to believe that the changes you're seeing might be permanent?

                        --Linda
                        Linda - did i use the word can or did i use the word may [there is a big difference] and did i use the word "permanent"?? - if so, i was in error and fall on my sword!! If that is a verbatim quote - all i can say is that it may have been in the heat of great (and emotional) debate (when possibly even over-medicated), resulting in a poor choice of words. It is not like me to use the word can, in such a statement - more like me to use the word may (in opinionated speculation), and very unlike me to use the word permanent. If i did ... my apologies to you, and to the entire world. Thought we cleared this up a while back - maybe not, hope it is clear now.

                        Certainly no medical professional (chiropractor or otherwise) has ever ever ever led me to believe that any treatment would effect permanent and lifelong cobb angle reduction (many orthopedic specialists have suggested, for me, that no treatment may result in the possibility of life long progression and also suggested that fusion from top to bottom of my spine would also not guarantee permanent cobb angle reduction (explaining to me that curvature may progress even following fusion, requiring revision) - nor has any orthopedic specialist ever guaranteed that surgery, for me, would eliminate pain). So there we have it - the rather sad truth about scoliosis .. there are no guarantees.

                        I've never been confused between adult and adolescent curvatures. Adolescent spines are still growing - Adult spines have ceased to grow, however they may continue to progress in curvature.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by NMFB
                          Hi:
                          I neither used the words "permanent," nor "can" in my posting, but I did hear these words somewhere! The brace I purchased was called a Dynamic Scoliosis Correction Brace, or sometimes the SpineCor Dynamic Brace.
                          This is before the backpedding began.
                          NMFB
                          Have you considered sueing to get your money back?

                          If they misrepresented the brace then that's fraud, no?
                          Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                          No island of sanity.

                          Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                          Answer: Medicine


                          "We are all African."

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            I got it. I was just extrapolating to the discussion of whether or not a curve reduction could be permanent. In order for that to happen, I believe one would have to continue the intensive exercise schedule for the rest of one's life.

                            --Linda
                            Never argue with an idiot. They always drag you down to their level, and then they beat you with experience. --Twain
                            ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            Surgery 2/10/93 A/P fusion T4-L3
                            Surgery 1/20/11 A/P fusion L2-sacrum w/pelvic fixation

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I would have to agree. when speaking to my dr about spinecor & scroth, he said that scroth works for alot of people, but it requires alot of dedication to the exercises & if those are stopped, the correction is lost. For those who have the time & dedication though, I'd say it's probably worth it.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by MichelleK View Post
                                I would have to agree. when speaking to my dr about spinecor & scroth, he said that scroth works for alot of people, but it requires alot of dedication to the exercises & if those are stopped, the correction is lost. For those who have the time & dedication though, I'd say it's probably worth it.
                                In other words, it doesn't permanently reduce curves.

                                No different than my daughter's brace (which she just stopped wearing). She got a 100% correction with that (in brace), MORE than Schroth ever got I bet. But not permanent.

                                Does Weiss claim Schroth permanently reduces curves? If not then no problem.
                                Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

                                No island of sanity.

                                Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
                                Answer: Medicine


                                "We are all African."

                                Comment

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