Quackery

[Delta107]

Hi! Basically I've been subjected to quite a bit of quackery in my life(well 25yo).

There's been a guy who charged 100$ for a bit of massage and claimed that he could cure scoliosis(or anything for that matter). That guy convinced my father to pay, but in the end I guess he understood that he's a quack. Then there's been this woman(another quack) who actually does massage, but yet again she claimed that she could cure scoliosis with the help of her daughter(psychic). In fact that young quack claimed that she could read the % of calcium in my bones. But I was in school back then, so don't judge me! Yet I continued to get massage from that chiropractor for some years. In the end I allowed her to manipulate my spine to lessen the curve(that was stupid of me). Basically that meant that she mounted on my back with her legs. She's quite heavy. Besides there have been some other manipulations but I don't remember. Anyway, could this have damaged my spine somehow? Is it possible to get damaged as a result of such "malpractice"? Unfortunately I don't have any older x-rays because my parents didn't consider that its necessary. You see in their opinion doctors are bad, they want to deceive and lie to people... Anyway this is such a shame. I might have tried schroth therapy when the curve was ~50 degrees, but they took me to the quack...

I can only suspect that the curve has progressed after maturity. And I didn't receive a proper warning because I didn't go to a proper doctor. Because I believed the quack that the curve is stable....

So a warning to everyone - don't allow yourselves to be deceived by greedy immoral quacks! Not even when your parents believe in them.

[rohrer01]

Delta,
I believe my spine broke "free" from chiro treatments. It was stable for almost 20 years. Then the upper curve progressed a little bit, but the lower curve progress a LOT.
She really mounted you with her knees?! How painful!

Yeah, I think that could hurt a person with a healthy spine, let alone a scoliotic one. I'm so sorry you had to endure that. I don't know how big that curve is, but it's much larger than mine and looks well over 50^o, but I'm not a doctor.

The thing is with chiroquactors is that you or your parents have to sign a waver that states that if they HURT you, you won't be able to SUE them.

I went through some quack treatment of electrical stimulation along with adjustments from a D.O. that had to retire shortly after that due to Alzheimer's. He said he was going to cure me and that he was going to write a journal article on how he cure scoliosis!

Sorry, man. You're not alone.

Kindly,
Rohrer01

[jrnyc]

a word of warning...
be very VERY cautious...suspicious...of ANYONE who throws the word "cure" around so freely...
used to happen with Lyme disease too...

there are some illnesses and conditions that can be managed, but not "cured"...
and some that can only be fixed with surgery....

sad to say, but in medicine it is "let the buyer beware" as much as in any other field....

jess...and Sparky

[Susie*Bee]

I would also like to know why my post was deleted. I did not say anything wrong or put anyone down. I have been on the forum for 6.5 years. If someone can't calmly express themselves, as I have always done, then I think that I, too, am about done with this forum. For Pete's sake. There is something rotten in Denmark. I am very sad about this whole thing and very disappointed.

[LindaRacine]

It's simple... keep your posts to the subject of scoliosis, don't post hypotheses as if they're facts, and don't attack anyone. Period.

[asccbodypro]

There are definitely a great deal of theories and thoughts let's say about how to deal to Scoliosis from a chiropractors point of view. I dealt with debilitating back problems for 6 years then had my youngest son by C-Section. I could barely walk post pregnancy I was in so much pain and decided to go to a chiropractor. This was a big step for me because they had always been recommended in the past for various reasons and I had always been scared of going. We sat and had a face to face consult, he examined me, x-rays, I heat therapy, he did a very mild adjustment with the a tool, followed by ice and stim. After, he said, "I'd like to show you your x-rays." I followed him into his x-ray room. He said nothing. He just stood there. When they say a picture is worth a thousand words there are no truer words spoken. I stood there and teared up. I felt like I was 11 years old again. He said, "I can't CURE your Scoliosis. I can't STOP the progression of your Scoliosis. What I can help you with is your pain and help you get moving and exercising again. My pain was so bad I could barely get off the table and walk. I would have to get up and stand there for 3-4 minutes before I could walk because my would collapse in on itself. I met with him 4 days a week for a year. I did not tell him that I had made the decision to have surgery until 2 or 3 months prior to. He of course was upset and felt that he as a doctor had failed me as his patient which of course wasn't true. My pre-surgery x-rays showed a 5 degree improvement in my curve. More than likely this was due to the improvement in all the muscle massage that also did. What my surgeon told my husband after my surgery was that had I not spent the year with the chiropractor and committed all that time and effort with him, he never would have been able to get such an excellent correction on my spine. My Scoliosis was a lumbar curve which tend to be very stiff curves as we grow older. I came out looking straight as can be rather than just having rods put in to stop the progression. You can bet I was pretty darn happy with by my surgeon and my chiropractor! I went back to visit my chiropractor to let him know what my surgeon had said which was a few months later and it made him feel pretty darn good. All those months it had weighed pretty heavily that he had failed me when in fact he is a huge factor in my success. There are many great chiropractors out there and many great massage therapists as well. I guess I was blessed to have both. Once I have my next follow up with the surgeons over at the naval hospital I'm getting referred out and to my original surgeon who is still in the area and starting back up with my chiropractor to get back on track. He worked on my neck a few years ago, approximately 7-8 months after my surgery, due to the straightening of my spine causing a curve in my neck and causing migraines. He used his activator tool, no twisting adjustments! I wish everyone could be in such good hands!!!!

[mariaf]

Hi Susan,

I am truly very glad that the chiro you saw was able to help you manage your pain.

I think the thing that people caution others about here, however, is when a chiro either says he can halt a curve's progressiono OR wants to treat a growing child with scoliosis, which IMHO should never be allowed to happen. A child with scoliosis should only be treated by a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, period.

Just my two cents.....

[Pooka1]

It sounds like you had a pretty honest chiro. So did I. These are the ones that don't mention subluxations. There is some evidence "chiro" can help with some lower back pain but not more than other therapies and certainly not associated with their claim of subluxations because those have been shown to be imaginary. That means that it is the overlap stuff that they and other therapists do that is helping, nothing specific to chiro. My chiro gave me a PT script and admitted that is what was going to help with my herniated disc. Honest.

I am past the point of caring what adults do with chiro and leave that to the BBB. But I agree with Maria that they have no place in treating growing kids with scoliosis because of the problem of missing conservative treatment windows while screwing around with nonsense chiro treatments (vibrating chairs, modified handheld jigsaws, etc.). Chiros have no relevant training to allow work on growing kids with scoliosis. There is no science of chiro for scoliosis.

[mariaf]

My husband actually goes to a chiro occasionally for back pain, as does a friend of mine. I absolutely believe that there are some honest ones and that they can help adults to manage pain in a lot of cases.

It's just a totally different story when it comes to letting them touch a child's spine when, as Pooka states, among other things that child can be missing the window for treatments that could actually help them. Chiros simply aren't trained or qualified to be treating children with scoliosis.

[Pooka1]

Yes I agree with Maria that pain is one thing. Claiming to do anything to halt or reverse curvature in anyone is a claim for which chiro has now had a long time to prove up and they have failed at getting evidence for that.

[asccbodypro]

I would agree that those who think they can halt progression need to be avoided at all cost. Especially when dealing with a growing child. I have a 14 year old son with Scolio and Pectus. I do not have the money now to spend to have him see our chiropractor as much as I did 5 years ago because I have been our of work. Would that make a difference in his progression? I can't say one way or another. I would wager a bet and say no. However, if I had the money I would definitely take him because he suffers from migraines due to his Pectus and poor posture. One thing that I have been reading into as I'm sure many of you have and perhaps some have posted articles on the forum that I just have not seen, is that researchers are finding (some believe) that the spinal curvature is just one symptom of Scoliosis. What started me on my search for more information was how I have been feeling over the past few months not only physically but emotionally. I believe that my surgery has had a great impact on my body as far as hormonal/vitamin imbalance/deficiencies. It was very interesting in that hopefully it's leading researchers down a path to the prevention of this disorder. I'd be interested in what others think about this as I would love to hear your opinion. When I find the article that I read I will come back and post it : )

[rohrer01]

All I know is that the "Father of Chiropractic" believed that fixing subluxations of the spine could cure ANY disease. That's the whole premise of chiropractic. The ones that realize that they are more in the field of PT are the more honest ones. The chiro that messed me up was a really nice person. There were things advertized in the office, though, that should have set off my red flags like chiro for ADHD in kids and stuff like that. She did do a LOT of PT type things that did help with pain. She would massage the tight muscles. That was about as helpful as it got. I still feel really bad because she's so NICE. Ugh. I say that because it's true. I'm not being sarcastic. She really tried to help. She believed and she had me believing for the first time. Belief didn't show anything good on my x-ray when that lower curve collapsed.

[titaniumed]

All I know is that the "Father of Chiropractic" believed that fixing subluxations of the spine could cure ANY disease.

Back in the 1800’s, it seemed that having a “cure all” was the catch phrase......Palmer grew up in that era, and invented the word subluxation, which is taught in Chiropractic school today.

Apparently Josie Wales wasn’t a believer and demanded proof!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sh0wr7HH8YBack

If a subluxation produces disease, I should have died a long long time ago....

Other than that.....these guys kept me going for many years. I’m sure that if I took meds for the last 4 decades, my liver would be shot. Maybe this was a good method of pain control through the years....

I cant believe that there are so few of us that have used Chiropractic for pain control.

Ed

[Pooka1]

One thing that I have been reading into as I'm sure many of you have and perhaps some have posted articles on the forum that I just have not seen, is that researchers are finding (some believe) that the spinal curvature is just one symptom of Scoliosis. What started me on my search for more information was how I have been feeling over the past few months not only physically but emotionally. I believe that my surgery has had a great impact on my body as far as hormonal/vitamin imbalance/deficiencies. It was very interesting in that hopefully it's leading researchers down a path to the prevention of this disorder. I'd be interested in what others think about this as I would love to hear your opinion. When I find the article that I read I will come back and post it : )

Hi. I thought it was the operating assumption among researchers that idiopathic scoliosis was a symptom of some etiology that might have other ramifications. Even in terms of the discs starting to wedge which starts the process, that is a result of some neuro or metabolic or other disease.

Even if they determine the etiology, unless it can be used to prevent scoliosis, the issue of adequate treatments will still be a problem.

I have seen chiros talk about surgeons only treating the symptoms of scoliosis and not the cause which they claim is not just neuro but a neuro that is amenable to the spinal manipulation and PT they do. If the etiology turns out to be metabolic as it might, that will instantly establish all chiro as begin only treating the symptoms by definition. That would be a pretty rich irony for the chiros claiming surgeons are just treating symptoms.

[Delta107]

I have not really started the thread to talk about theories but trying to share a warning. Whether the "practitioner" is a chiropractor or not is beside the point.

It sounds like you had a pretty honest chiro. So did I. These are the ones that don't mention subluxations. There is some evidence "chiro" can help with some lower back pain but not more than other therapies and certainly not associated with their claim of subluxations because those have been shown to be imaginary. That means that it is the overlap stuff that they and other therapists do that is helping, nothing specific to chiro. My chiro gave me a PT script and admitted that is what was going to help with my herniated disc. Honest.

I am past the point of caring what adults do with chiro and leave that to the BBB. But I agree with Maria that they have no place in treating growing kids with scoliosis because of the problem of missing conservative treatment windows while screwing around with nonsense chiro treatments (vibrating chairs, modified handheld jigsaws, etc.). Chiros have no relevant training to allow work on growing kids with scoliosis. There is no science of chiro for scoliosis.

On top of what I have written in the OP I would add something. When I was in the 10th grade(I think) my father got me to a chiropractor/dangerous quack. So basically he claimed that he could shape my spirit and remodel my spine in the aether. So after some "adjustments", massage, and smearing me in cognac he brought the "toolkit". Now, we're talking about wooden hammers, and all kind of utensils. To keep this short, that bastard hammered directly on my vertebrae. I am not joking. Had I not yelled that[.... ] would have continued. You have to understand this in the context of my family. Well I was extremely puppeteer-ed by my parents. Well, to keep it short my parents have some...issues. So I trusted both them and all these assholes they found to treat me. I doubt that now I have some fracture because I've been xrayed. Back then it felt like someone...hammered my spine. People do things for all kinds of reasons but when it comes to such serious conditions like scoliosis there is the problem of trust. Actually my mother has scoliosis and has had surgery ~40years ago(Harrington rods). She's not simply skeptical of doctors, she actually believes that doctors either don't know how to treat or they are intending harm on the patient to squeeze money on repeated surgeries. I don't think that today's doctors are Josef Mengele. Yet my parents think that somehow conventional medicine is harmful or unreliable. The funny part is that "treating" diseases with snake skin or other quackery is the real danger.