Spinecor Adult Users

[Pooka1]

Hi Sharon

Thanks for the well worded support. ok - am i a young earth creationist? Not sure, will have to research - certainly not young, that is a fact. If i was one however, i'm certain i would have no difficulty saying so and would probably have no trouble writing a thesis justifying the existence (which in my imagination would receive an A+)

I normally vote Democratic but consider myself Independent ... when i feel moved to engage in politics. Good word - counterfactual .. making note.

Here's a test for if you are a young earth creationist... do you get your science information from the clergy with no science training or do you get your science from actual scientists with years of scientific training and experience?

There is a reason why 93% of the top scientists in the US (members of the National Academy of Sciences) not only discard young earth creationism as nonsense but discard the notion of a personal god. It has to do with having actual scientific data and being intellectually honest.

Did you pass the test?

(ETA: In re the 93% figure, while 7% do accept a personal god, they are not young earth creationists. It is impossible to maintain a believe in young earth creationism when you know the scientific facts and you are honest.)

[Pooka1]

Pooka, could you talk more about bracing and PT being opposite? I think I know what you mean but I'd like to hear more from you.

Here's what I wrote a while back. It was mainly to sort out some ideas. Maybe folks will want to comment.

I have been tossing some ideas around in my head. Please comment.

What are the claimed modes of action of these approaches?

Hard bracing, I take it, is supposed to immobilize the spine in a straighter configuration. I assume this means that the growth on the side that increases the curve is arrested through pressure and the growth on the side that has to grow to straighten the spine is allowed to go on unimpeded. It is not claimed to do anything positive with muscling w.r.t. correcting the curve. Indeed, if hard bracing immobilizes the spine in a particular configuration, then it is also immobilizing the muscles.

Soft bracing like Spinecor is supposed to allow more mobility and flexibility while simultaneously either holding a curve or maybe decreasing it. If it is to do that then it must hold the spine in a configuration such that the growth occurs where wanted and no growth occurs elsewhere, as for hard braces. Now I don't know if that goal involves changing musculature or not. But bracing, hard or soft, takes over for certain muscles and there will be atrophy. Bracing can't build up muscles. If Spinecor allows for movement such that abnormal growth is not prevented, I'm not sure how it can succeed.

Which brings us to PT. At base, the claims of PT approaches necessarily are that certain muscles have to be built up to counter the curves. But what is the evidence that a lack of muscle caused the curve or that building up certain muscle can ever improve a curve? I don't know about other forms of scoliosis but idiopathic scoliosis is a result of uneven growth of the vertebrae as far as I know. Why would PT ever be thought to be able to address that? And it seems the perfect vacuum of evidence for the efficacy of PT approaches bears out this thought.

In sum, if idiopathic scoliosis is caused by abnormal growth patterns of the spine, how can any approach that doesn't try to arrest those patterns ever going to succeed? And the corollary, how can any approach addressing musculature ever hope to succeed?

Fire away!

Also, your point, that the first person to think of the bacterium (for ulcers) may have been the one who proved it, is well taken, and I guess that's what I mean by not wanting to shut down hope. Where are the out-of-the box ideas coming from for scoliosis? All I hear is surgery (and little tiny mentions of stapling). And from what I've read surgery has been a big improvement for lots of people on this board. But hoping for choices in addition to surgery doesn't only have to be hope for braces; or for PT; or for electronic stimulations; (or whatever) but hope for something. I find the research thread very interesting--even though I don't understand most of it.

I agree that if there is a non-surgical solution, it will be something outside the box that is not already on the table.

[mamamax]

Here's a test for if you are a young earth creationist... do you get your science information from the clergy with no science training or do you get your science from actual scientists with years of scientific training and experience?

There is a reason why 93% of the top scientists in the US (members of the National Academy of Sciences) not only discard young earth creationism as nonsense but discard the notion of a personal god. It has to do with having actual scientific data and being intellectually honest.

Did you pass the test?

oh Jezzzz sharon - a test??? again??? are you serious or just having some fun?

ok - my answer .. in my research, i get my scientific information from many sources, never confining myself to only one category, or even only one science - for all sources hold some small piece to the large puzzle. Then i analyze the information - toss out what makes no sense (but put it somewhere i can find in case later it proves that it does make sense) ... check what is left to see what is missing (if anything) ... give it all more thought - repeat the cycle if deemed necessary - consult with the cat, - make my decision based upon what i think i know based on sources i have researched, analyzed, and verified and in the final analysis ... give it careful and serious prayer, seeking guidance for what i should do next (intuition answers) - i respond (sometimes repeating the entire process), make a final decision after more careful and serious prayer - then place the outcome in the hands of God. And that's the truth. For whatever it makes me.

[Pooka1]

oh Jezzzz sharon - a test??? again??? are you serious or just having some fun?

ok - my answer .. in my research, i get my scientific information from many sources, never confining myself to only one category, or even only one science - for all sources hold some small piece to the large puzzle. Then i analyze the information - toss out what makes no sense (but put it somewhere i can find in case later it proves that it does make sense) ... check what is left to see what is missing (if anything) ... give it all more thought - repeat the cycle if deemed necessary - consult with the cat, - make my decision based upon what i think i know based on sources i have researched, analyzed, and verified and in the final analysis ... give it careful and serious prayer, seeking guidance for what i should do next (intuition answers) - i respond (sometimes repeating the entire process), make a final decision after more careful and serious prayer - then place the outcome in the hands of God. And that's the truth. For whatever it makes me.

Here's my list:

1. evidence
2. intellectual honesty

That's it.

[mamamax]

Morning Sharon - One cup of coffee thought: Both methods finding merit as they are actually quite similar (as evidenced, under the electron microscope) - different strokes for different folks. Is the path more important than the destination ... or is the destination more important than the path? (its a test)

Do we get to graduate away from young earth creationism (referencing post #123/124)?

[Pooka1]

Do we get to graduate away from young earth creationism (referencing post #123/124)?

Only if we move to Europe.

Every poll I have seen shows that almost half the US populace is ignorant on the facts about the true age of the earth and the fact of evolution.

In the mean time, these creationist "geniuses" are always scheming to bankrupt school districts so we have to be vigilant. Maybe your taxes are next to go up.

The US is the laughing stock of the world on this point. Europe is not only much more scientitifcally literate but many countries are post-religion. They have moved on. I wish the US would do the same.

[concerned dad]

Europe is not only much more scientitifcally literate .......

Perhaps, but why then do we summarily dismiss the European appoach to conservative scoliosis treatments?

I just stumbled across an interesting SOSORT paper discussing Lori Dolans meta analysis. I'll post the link and start a discussion in the RESEARCH forum.

[CHRIS WBS]

The US is the laughing stock of the world on this point. Europe is not only much more scientitifcally literate but many countries are post-religion. They have moved on. I wish the US would do the same.

Is this why the U.S. leads the world in Nobel prize winners? Why don’t you move on…to Europe?

[loves to skate]

Hi Sharon,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooka1
Any counterfactual position will work in this context... young earth creationism, astrology, alchemy, Repubican, etc.

You could have left politics out of this discussion.

Sally

[LoveArt]

You're not kidding. Would you ask him to quit with all these kids suffering with scoliosis?

Oh and can you put in a good word for the circus elephants? They are suffering needlessly also.

Thanks in advance.

sharon

Wow Pooka1. I've been catching up with the thread after a few days and I am shocked that you would mock God like that. I am offended.

Could you please show respect to the writer even if you disagree with the content of their post? I bet I'm not the only one who feels this way.

For the record I want to know Mamamax's experience with Spinecor. Keep posting Mamamax, we ARE reading.

[Karen Ocker]

Pooka:

Actually, H-Pylori is found in 98% of ulcers/cancerous ulcers/stomach cancers. I did a paper on it in graduate school(10 years ago) and found it is considered a Class 1 carcinogen per the WHO. There is also another cancer, a form of lymphoma caused by H-Pylori which, in early stages, can be cured by antibiotics.

I got interested in it after my father died of stomach cancer(1991); he had a long history of ulcer disease. I also was infected by H-pylori and it was eradicated. This bacterium lives in the acid stomach environment.
There are other ulcers caused by steroids, NSAIDS, aspirin but these do not usually lead to stomach cancer but cause severe, sometimes fatal bleeding.

The current state of the art(gastroenterology) is to treat H-Pylori. Doing so eliminates and heals the ulcers caused by this hardy bacterium. Healing has been documented by follow up gastroscopy.

When H-pylori gastritis is treated with appropriate antibiotics it does not progress to ulcers.

[Pooka1]

Perhaps, but why then do we summarily dismiss the European appoach to conservative scoliosis treatments?

Woo-woo knows no boundaries...

[Pooka1]

Is this why the U.S. leads the world in Nobel prize winners?

Many of whom came from Europe and very very very likely NONE of whom are young earth creationists.

Why don’t you move on…to Europe?

You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If all rational people jumped ship and moved to Europe, where would that leave the US?

[Pooka1]

Hi Sharon,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooka1
Any counterfactual position will work in this context... young earth creationism, astrology, alchemy, Repubican, etc.

You could have left politics out of this discussion.

Sally

You're right. I apologize.

[Pooka1]

Wow Pooka1. I've been catching up with the thread after a few days and I am shocked that you would mock God like that. I am offended.

Your offense offends me.