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Thread: Quackwatch and Schroth

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    What do you know about Schroth Rohrer?, if you know something i could talk with you as I did with Kevin_Mc. Do you believe that tone may be changed? If it could really be possible, involuntary muscles may fight better against the lateral gravity force? What do you think?
    Thsi would be an interesting discussion for me.
    Flerc,
    If you look back into the Schroth thread, I had a TON of questions! I was seriously considering going to the clinic for the two week in-house stay. There was another member on here that was going to go, too. Her insurance denied it and I thought she was going to try to find a way to do. If I remember correctly, she did some research and decided against it for her own reasons.

    For me, my main consideration for contemplating Schroth was for pain management and to halt curve progression. I have a curve that can not be touched by ANY method other than surgery, and that would be extremely dangerous with a not so good outcome as a real possibility. I'm stuck. There was NO brace that could touch my curve as a kid, not even the dreaded Milwaukee brace, which is what they were talking about with each other as they looked over my neck and upper back. My problem now is that I have a now structural compensatory curve that keeps increasing. When it increases 10o, then my other curve seems to increase 3o-5o. They are within a few degrees of each other at this point. I'm afraid that the lower curve will eventually overtake the upper curve. I considered Schroth for this reason. I even looked into CLEAR and watched their very convincing (until you take a closer look) infomercial. It reminded me way too much of what I was put through as a teenager at the hands of a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (DO). I knew at my age that program would be way too painful for me to endure.

    I looked over their website and read what they had to say. No one convinced me away from this method. I use PT all of the time and have had some great success with pain management. I'm NOT a Schroth expert. I don't know how to do a "side-shift" exercise that everyone keeps talking about. I just decided that Schroth wouldn't be able to give me what I really wanted for the amount of time and money that would be invested. There is NO exercise that can target my curve. I was already happy with the cosmetic appearance that my lower curve progression had given me. My shoulders are completely level, but not the muscles. You have to look pretty closely at me to see my deformity while I'm dressed. I've learned to dress it down.

    As it turns out, I have a bunch of other stuff going on with me that is contributing to my pain and lack of mobility. Schroth wasn't designed to help people like me, so I made the right decision.

    As for bracing? I do know a thing or two about it. My son married a lovely young woman who was braced for three or four years AND had to have surgery anyway. She showed me pictures of that torture contraption. It gave her sores and squeezed her so tightly that she could barely breathe or eat. When I was first getting to know her I asked her if she would go through the bracing again, knowing what she knows. She said, yes. Now she says, NO WAY! That's why I said what I did about people changing their minds about whether they felt a treatment was successful or not. It turns out that she originally said "yes" because she wanted to have some justification in her mind that she didn't go through that for nothing. Now she realizes that even if the brace DID work at slowing the curve progression, she would have just had to have surgery a couple of years earlier with the same outcome she has now. Her brace was a custom brace. She said being fitted for it was totally humiliating and wearing it made her feel like a social outcast. She had a LOT of trouble adjusting and has symptoms of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) as a result of that brace. As an adult, she feels that holding off surgery for a couple of years was NOT worth the trauma of that brace. She feels like it destroyed her life. She still gets teary eyed when she talks about her life "in brace".

    Now they are talking about starting a family. My DIL is not opposed to exercise for scoliosis. But she knows there are limitations. To be quite honest, I'm extremely GRATEFUL that Mariaf is on this forum! Without her, I would never have known about the possibility of fusionless surgery. There's a good chance that my grandchildren may have scoliosis. We will be EVER vigilant! IF it shows up, they will be followed by someone who knows what they are doing. I highly doubt that she would allow her children to be braced. I do know that she would choose fusionless surgery over spinal fusion if that day ever comes. Mariaf has opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities that I never knew existed. So please, don't talk bad about her!

    I know your daughter has scoliosis. But, unless you've lived in a body like that there's no way of fully comprehending what it's like.

    I'm not about to repeat all of the discussions that I've already had on other threads. I don't even know what all I said!
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    Other one not having nothing to do in non surgical sections, except promoting surgery, but in an immoral way, that is defaming non surgical methods. What the hell you and your friend know about Schroth, Pt, braces? I have never heard nothing interesting coming from your mouths. Certainly for someone thinking in Vbs, to see your work here is a very bad reference really.
    For a certainty, Flerc, I don't even know Mariaf. I don't know if I've ever even gotten a PM from her! So to call us "friends" when we don't know each other is far reaching. Although, I would probably very much like Mariaf if I got to know her. Her work here is NOT immoral. VBS and tethering are some things that I never knew existed. I thought the only options for scoliosis were bracing, exercise and FUSION surgery. How is telling people that there are fusionless options out there for their kids with rapidly progressing curves immoral?

    Pooka1 is certainly NOT getting PAID for her posts on the forum. Linda Racine is the moderator and doesn't get paid! So why would someone pay Sharon? WHO would pay her? I just think that it's silly to think that forum members would collect a penny for contributing to a forum.

    You said:

    You have time for this, good for you! Clearly you are not spending your time here because a health problem, not?. Well, if writting here would be my job, probably I would also be spending my time here talking about something not having to do with the the problem for which I'm here .. money is allways a help.
    You had not much success trying to defame braces, so are you going now for PT? Good idea!.
    You should to ask to Quackwatch folks if the absence of a serious article showing evidence for something (as braist) implies it's a fraud for them. If that is the case, they should to belong to the Quackwatch list.. it would become to seems a more serious list
    I'll respond to what you (or people supporting you) reply when I can.. my job has nothing to do with this..
    My god, again the same.. I understand how hard is for you to continue defaming non surgical options after that study, but I have not time for this.. to copy and paste what we talked about this, also insume time and I'm not recieving a pay for this,. But you could try to answer something of all what I asked you.. at least it would be funny..
    Bold, mine.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post

    As for bracing? I do know a thing or two about it. My son married a lovely young woman who was braced for three or four years AND had to have surgery anyway. She showed me pictures of that torture contraption. It gave her sores and squeezed her so tightly that she could barely breathe or eat. When I was first getting to know her I asked her if she would go through the bracing again, knowing what she knows. She said, yes. Now she says, NO WAY! That's why I said what I did about people changing their minds about whether they felt a treatment was successful or not. It turns out that she originally said "yes" because she wanted to have some justification in her mind that she didn't go through that for nothing. Now she realizes that even if the brace DID work at slowing the curve progression, she would have just had to have surgery a couple of years earlier with the same outcome she has now. Her brace was a custom brace. She said being fitted for it was totally humiliating and wearing it made her feel like a social outcast. She had a LOT of trouble adjusting and has symptoms of PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) as a result of that brace. As an adult, she feels that holding off surgery for a couple of years was NOT worth the trauma of that brace. She feels like it destroyed her life. She still gets teary eyed when she talks about her life "in brace".

    Now they are talking about starting a family. My DIL is not opposed to exercise for scoliosis. But she knows there are limitations. To be quite honest, I'm extremely GRATEFUL that Mariaf is on this forum! Without her, I would never have known about the possibility of fusionless surgery. There's a good chance that my grandchildren may have scoliosis. We will be EVER vigilant! IF it shows up, they will be followed by someone who knows what they are doing. I highly doubt that she would allow her children to be braced. I do know that she would choose fusionless surgery over spinal fusion if that day ever comes. Mariaf has opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities that I never knew existed. So please, don't talk bad about her!

    I know your daughter has scoliosis. But, unless you've lived in a body like that there's no way of fully comprehending what it's like.

    I'm not about to repeat all of the discussions that I've already had on other threads. I don't even know what all I said!

    I can't say I agree with you about bracing as I have never been braced, something I do regret immensely up to this day. But I would most certainly try it first before surgery if my curve were to keep progressing. Since it has stopped in my late teens, I would think that the only reason my curves were to progress in the future would be because of degenerative discs or vertebrae, and yes they it is treatment protocol used by orthopedics to treat degenerative scoliosis with bracing and exercise first before even considering surgery. I say give bracing a chance even if you are already a skeletal mature adult, there is no harm in trying rather than conceding to surgery. If the brace gives you discomfort then maybe try to wear it only half an entire day supported with exercise, and then maybe after each year, wean off the brace completely for a couple of months before going back to wearing it full-time again. Basically do anything you can with the brace to slow down the progression.

    As for fusionless surgery, I am very curious about that. Would it enable the patient to still retain all flexibility he/she had before and not have to get rods and screws implanted onto their spine?
    Last edited by Jinseeker; 02-01-2014 at 12:50 AM.

  4. #49
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    No dog in this fight

    I hesitate to even post here as I do not have a dog in this fight, but you guys are truly amazing! I will not be posting here again, but slinging insults at each other is not producitve.
    Susan
    Adult Onset Degen Scoliosis @65, 25* T & 36* L w/ 11.2 cm coronal balance; T kyphosis 90*; Sev disc degen T & L stenosis

    2013: T3- S1 Fusion w/ ALIF L4-S1/XLIF L2-4, PSF T4-S1 2 surgeries
    2014: Hernia @ ALIF repaired; Emergency screw removal SCI T4,5 sec to PJK
    2015: Rev Broken Bil T & L rods and no fusion: 2 revision surgeries; hardware P. Acnes infection
    2016: Ant/Lat Lumbar diskectomy w/ 4 cages + BMP + harvested bone
    2018: Removal L4,5 screw
    2021: Removal T1 screw & rod

  5. #50
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    Susan,
    It certainly didn't start out this way. I'm fed up with it, too. I'm done. I promise.

    Jinseeker,
    The bracing is my DIL's opinion. I know I would have done it as a child, too. I actually tried on a couple of women's apparel items (yes, I'm female) that are designed to hold your shoulders back and smooth out bra strap lines. There are several types of them. I was hoping that they could give me some support in the upper back that would lead to some pain relief. The pain I had was so immediate and excruciating I couldn't get out of that thing fast enough AND I dropped the idea of a brace. I was also interested in obtaining a Spincor brace at one time. Although there isn't any way to brace my upper curve, my lower curve might be a different story even though it is thoracic, too.

    Oh, and fusionless surgery is only available for growing kids so far. It's based on the premise that as the spine grows it straightens out (tethering). I'm not sure about the long term outcomes of VBS because I'm not convinced that the staples won't get metal fatigue and break. Mariaf would know WAY more about that than I do. I think she has a kid who is stapled. Those questions would be good to ask her.
    Last edited by rohrer01; 02-01-2014 at 01:59 AM.
    Be happy!
    We don't know what tomorrow brings,
    but we are alive today!

  6. #51
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    ' tried to make it work for 10 years and with 30,000 patients. He GAVE UP.'
    You said he failed using Schroth with their patients. Where do you see he saying this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    I check to see if he won the Nobel in Physiology/Medicine for letting people avoid fusion surgery. And nope, he has not.
    Of course he never said he failed with all his patients in surgical risk, it seems it was only an invention of your mind, as the 99% of all what you don't stop to say against non surgical options.
    If you believe the Nobel Prize must to be asigned to someone inventing something to avoid a surgery, look for the first one inventing braces milleniums ago..

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    For a certainty, Flerc, I don't even know Mariaf. I don't know if I've ever even gotten a PM from her! So to call us "friends" when we don't know each other is far reaching.
    You never understand what I say. Obviously I was refering to Pooka1, not you.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohrer01 View Post
    For a certainty, Flerc, I don't even know Mariaf. I don't know if I've ever even gotten a PM from her! So to call us "friends" when we don't know each other is far reaching. Although, I would probably very much like Mariaf if I got to know her. Her work here is NOT immoral. VBS and tethering are some things that I never knew existed. I thought the only options for scoliosis were bracing, exercise and FUSION surgery. How is telling people that there are fusionless options out there for their kids with rapidly progressing curves immoral?

    Pooka1 is certainly NOT getting PAID for her posts on the forum. Linda Racine is the moderator and doesn't get paid! So why would someone pay Sharon? WHO would pay her? I just think that it's silly to think that forum members would collect a penny for contributing to a forum.

    You said:



    Bold, mine.
    I may tolerate attacks to me as you did in a previous post, but I don't have any interest to talk with an accomplice of the immoral work done in this forum, defending people doing it. But you believed I was refering to you instead of Pooka1, so just only for this reason I will answer what you asked, even I'm sure you will not agree.
    I know A LOT of people around the world thinking not only that this is the best publicity for surgery since the permanent attack to non surgical options defaming them, something extremely obvious for anyone of course, but also that since this forum allows this, the responsable of this forum have some interest in doing such kind of immoral publicity. A logic conclusion really, you don't believe? I cannot know if Pooka1 and also people supporting her are receiving money for doing this immoral work of course, but is a way to explain why happens what happens here.

    If you have some interest in continue talking with me, don't defend never more Pooka1 and people supporting her.
    Last edited by flerc; 02-01-2014 at 12:03 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    I know A LOT of people around the world thinking not only that this is the best publicity for surgery since the permanent attack to non surgical options defaming them, something extremely obvious for anyone of course, but also that since this forum allows this, the responsable of this forum have some interest in doing such kind of immoral publicity.
    I am not responsible for, and will not apologize for, the LACK of asking for evidence for any treatment among the masses. This is NOT my fault and I often argue for good science educations as against others who want to undermine science education. I argue for being evidence-driven. You interpret that as being pro-surgery. That falls out that way because that's how the evidence falls out. This has nothing to do with me in particular.

    A logic conclusion really, you don't believe? I cannot know if Pooka1 and also people supporting her are receiving money for doing this immoral work of course, but is a way to explain why happens what happens here.
    No actually it is irrational on its face. I don't think you really believe it because I don't think you are that irrational.

    If you have some interest in continue talking with me, don't defend never more Pooka1 and people supporting her.
    Instead of talking about people, why don't you talk about the evidence (or lack thereof) for these conservative treatments. That's what people want to see, not irrational nonsense like you have been posting.
    Last edited by Pooka1; 02-01-2014 at 01:08 PM.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


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  10. #55
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    Iím at least something irrational since Iím discussing again this with you, a perfect nonsense of course.. As I said you hundreds of times, you cannot said Ďthere is not evidenceí, you only may say ĎI donít know about some evidenceí. Braces works (and surely better) since milleniums ago and the proof (evidence) was shown to all the world some months ago. So you should to delete all your posts saying Ďthere is not evidenceí as I said you years ago. How many people around the world have seen how braces work? How could you know if the same may be said about PT? What do you know? You never give a reason about why something cannot works, you only say ĎI donít know about some evidenceí in thousands of diferent corrupt and confusing ways, all the time every day in thousands of posts. And you say to be a scientist. A scientist never could reasoning as you seem to reasoning, say what you say.. except would be forced to do that.

    And of course is EXTREME suspect why you may stay all the day, as you did thousonds of times before, in non surgical sections if you say they donít work! Iím here because I think they works, surely not in every case, but in some cases and Iím trying to get information here, to talk with others.. something IMPOSSIBLE with you doing what you do.
    So, for me you are forced in some way (for instance receiving money you need) to do this or you are not sane.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by flerc View Post
    And of course is EXTREME suspect why you may stay all the day, as you did thousonds of times before, in non surgical sections if you say they donít work! Iím here because I think they works, surely not in every case, but in some cases and Iím trying to get information here, to talk with others.. something IMPOSSIBLE with you doing what you do.
    Yes! Yes! It would be good to be able to freely talk with others on this forum about non-surgical strategies. I too, am always interested in getting information about what others are trying and what others think may have helped them. Some people could actually be helped by this.
    "The most deadly action you can take is to internalize someone else's negativity, for once you start to believe it, youíre sunk."

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victine View Post
    Some people could actually be helped by this.
    What would actually help is for you to post the radiographs showing PT let people avoid surgery. You said you had radiographs but you don't post them. Why? Do you or do you not want to help people here?

    Talk is cheap. Radiographs read by surgeons or radiologists are the only game in town for claims of PT avoiding surgery.
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victine View Post
    Yes! Yes! It would be good to be able to freely talk with others on this forum about non-surgical strategies.
    Everyone is free to talk about non-surgical strategies all day and half the night. But if they make CLAIMS of PT letting someone avoid surgery, they have to show the evidence. Scoliosis is a field of medicine, not revelation.

    You implied a conservation treatment was working. What is it and where is the proof it is working?
    Sharon, mother of identical twin girls with scoliosis

    No island of sanity.

    Question: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
    Answer: Medicine


    "We are all African."

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victine View Post
    Yes! Yes! It would be good to be able to freely talk with others on this forum about non-surgical strategies. I too, am always interested in getting information about what others are trying and what others think may have helped them. Some people could actually be helped by this.
    Of course it would be good Victine, is not fair what happens here and is absolutely impossible that the responsable of this forum could not be aware. I have never seen other forum like this. Unfortunately is the more visited of the world.
    Imagine what an amazing forum would be without the Pooka1's perpetual work. But it seems she is not the only one interested in making the biggest forum of the world in the biggest surgery publicity.. nothing that we may say here could change anything.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pooka1 View Post
    Everyone is free to talk about non-surgical strategies all day and half the night. But if they make CLAIMS of PT letting someone avoid surgery, they have to show the evidence. Scoliosis is a field of medicine, not revelation.
    Everyone talking in the name of science as you do all the time AND SAYING TO BE A SCIENTIST as you did, should to prove it!!! I opened a thread saying this, warning parents reading your posts AND IT WAS DELETED!! You are not alone here of course, is obvious this forum wants you to do what you do. If you would be honest yo would prove to be a scientist, something impossible to believe really.

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