Have alternative therapies shown effectiveness??

[stephanieC]

Hi Everybody,

Have any of these alternative therapies shown any real proof that they work? I ask because, I have a 9 y/o daughter who will be having vertebral stapling soon to correct her curve and hopefully stop progression. But, I also have a second daughter whose spine is currently straight but she does have a small rib hump and a pelvic bone rotation. The docs so far don't know what to make of it, but seem to feel it is the start of scoliosis.

I was thinking, maybe some of these other options would benefit such a young child (7years). Especially before the curve starts.

Has anyone out there had personal experience and/or success with any of these alternative type treatments??

I appreciate your reply,
Stephanie

[gerbo]

Have any of these alternative therapies shown any real proof that they work

unfortunately not, there hasn't been the research so there is no evidence. We tried a chiropracter, who obviously (the way she was doing things) was never going to make a difference as well as currently seeing an osteopath whose actions look as if they could theoretically do something.

You might get some "anecdotal evidence" of thinhs people think might have worked for them, but then you might get anecdotal evicence saying the opposite as well, so not a lot to go on.

Ofcourse, with this lack of efficient proven treatments, there is a big market out there for people claiming to have a cure, just be very careful with anybody stating that and ask, as you are doing here, for reasonable solid evidence.

[2kids]

gerbo,
What's an osteopath and what do they do?

Thanks!

[structural75]

Gerbo,

Be careful now....

unfortunately not, there hasn't been the research so there is no evidence

Evidence is not soley derived from studies or research alone... We both know that clinical evidence is real and valid. To say there's "no evidence" is not truthful whatsoever.... and don't ask me to post the clinical evidence for you please.

[rtremb]

We had an interesting experience today at the end of Esme's third SI treatment. Miranda had asked her stand up a couple of times during the treatment, which was focusing mainly on her torso, back and neck, and I didn't notice any real difference in her back HOWEVER at the end Miranda asked her to stand up so she could look at her. I was very surprised to see that Esme's back looked 95% even. She was standing up straighter - I am sure she looked taller. Her shoulders were further back and straighter. It was an amazing thing to see. I felt her spine (which I do a lot) and it for sure, for sure felt straighter. My husband was waiting downstairs and I asked him to come up to see the result of today's treatment. He too was pleased and amazed by what he saw. Miranda did caution us that there would be some return to the "old" position but said that as the treatments continue the back will return less and less to its "old" position leading to an eventual signficant improvement.

I have to admit I was a little skeptical about these treatments - having read and heard so much about things not working that look and read like they should. I went into it thinking we'd give it a try hoping for the best. However today has convinced me there really is something to these SI treatments. What the end result will be for Esme I don't know but I am now feeling very optimistic we are doing something good for her with this.

Ruth

[gerbo]

STRUCTURAL, not surprised you responded. As we do not agree on how to define evidence we will never agree on whether it exists or not.

Ruth; nothing better then a first hand account of a certain method(which we have never had re SI) to help people making their mind up whether it is worth considering, despite the lack of any validated scientific evidence.

I hope so much for you and your child that it will prove to make a difference!

gerbo

[stephanieC]

Ruth,

I am very happy that you are seeing a difference in your daughter with the SI treatments. Please continue to post her progression (or should I say reduction!!)

I will be looking more into this SI. That is Structural Integration ..yes??

Gerbo,

I too like to see research and proof over time to show effectiveness. I am also willing to try something and just see if it works or at least helps my child. Haven't you tried some alternative therapies along with the spine cor?? I remember reading something in another thread. My daughter, Shannon, currently has a straight spine on x ray. If I start alternative therapy now to reduce the pelvic bone rotation, perhaps I can spare her the need for a brace or VBS down the road. I just want to know that I am seeing someone who holds this same philosophy and is competent!!

If you don't mind me asking, how old was your daughter when you decided on spine cor and how is she doing now?? I ask because I find spine cor to be the only acceptable brace because of it's flexibility. My first child is having VBS next month. But I think, if I catch the curve very early, I may use spine cor on my second child so perhaps her curve will never even reach 20 degrees.?

I like the idea of spine cor but am very interested in how the child feels about wearing the spinecor brace for so many years. I guess my biggest issue with any brace is the length of time per day and over years the child must spend in the brace. I also think the spine cor brace has alot of "issues" regarding straps, attachments, rubbing, swimming, beach, certain types of clothing, etc. If I place my second daughter in the spine cor early (when her curves are in the teens) do I create a destiny of years in a brace for her?? I know to some my logic is different, but like I said, my 9 yo is having VBS in a month. This will spare her years in a brace.

To all reading this,I realize my post is all over the place. Sorry for that. I guess I am just spinning with thoughts right now.

Anyones experience with alternative therapies that may help prevent my daughter's spine from curving is really what I am looking for.

Thanks!!
Stephanie

[gerbo]

I too like to see research and proof over time to show effectiveness. I am also willing to try something and just see if it works or at least helps my child. Haven't you tried some alternative therapies along with the spine cor??

absolutely, I have no issue with anything you say and indeed I have and am trying other treatments as well. they are 2 different questions though, i.e. 1) is there evidence and 2) what are you trying and why

believe, i have searched and asked re real evidence all over the place, like anybody else, just to make sure that the limited time we have available we do not waste on anything what is unlikely to help and try to choose "the best of the crop"

l was 11 when we started the spinecor and she has coped very well.

currently she is not doing too well, as a secondary curve has developped, which appears to be worse than the first one we were trying to deal with, and i am worried!!

Personally i would not start worrying yet as to whether your younger daughter in the future if and when she would develop a curve could cope with the spinecor, it is just not a reality at the moment, just "allow" her to be healthy and normal and focus your concern and attention on your daughter who has a problem and needs your support. I hope that the vertebral stapling will help her

ps; don't worry about being all over the place, happens to all of us all the time

gerbo

[stephanieC]

Hi Gerbo,

I am sorry to hear that Lisanna has developed a secondary curve. Do you work with the doctors in Montreal?? Isn't it possible to apply tension to both curves using spine cor? How are the docs. treating this second curve? How old is Lisanna now?

I have to admit that my priority is in being there for my 9 year old and with Christmas and all, things are busy. I just thought there may be some exercises or something that we could do that may prevent my 7 year old from developing scoliosis if we start now. Maybe we can even correct some of her pelvic bone rotation?? Just checking to see what others think.

Every time I see Shannon's rib hump I get so afraid. It looks at least the same as my older daughters. If I hadn't seen her x ray myself, I wouldn't believe that her spine is straight. She obviously has spine rotation... no?? The doc did not say anything about her spine being rotated but, if you have a rib hump, doesn't that mean your spine is rotated??

Stephanie

[structural75]

Gerbo,

STRUCTURAL, not surprised you responded. As we do not agree on how to define evidence we will never agree on whether it exists or not.

Maybe so... , but simply because every individual with scoliosis who has tried "alternative" methods with success wasn't part of a formal case study and decided not to post their before and after x-rays on the NSF Forum, it doesn't mean that their experience and end result wasn't real... or 'evident'. Is your daughter part of a formal scientific case study so that you can help lend scientific credence to your chosen methods (torso-rotations, inversion table, etc.)? I just ask that you look at things this way... If your chosen methods work, then who will believe you and why should they believe you when you suggest the use of them if you don't have scientific evidence for inversion tables and such? Would it negate the reality you might have? Isn't an individual's success real evidence, ...documented in a study or not?

I think it's OK that she's not, but it would nice if you could be a little more understanding and accepting of the willingness and desire of others who choose to try "scientifically unproven" (neither proven or disproved mind you) methods other than the ones you're trying. Last I knew, inversion tables were not an accepted or "proven" treatment for scoliosis... Is it?

And I guess if you feel that hanging upside down by your ankles is going to have a more precise effect than something that utilizes intellectual strategy, receptive manipulation and exacting intervention then so be it... Let others take their educated risk as well. But to suggest that SI is not an appropriate or "valid" approach to scoliosis is really, really shortsighted... Especially seeing that it does in fact have scientific evidence/studies to show its capability to dramatically change the human body/structure in ways that no other approach has yet to accomplish... in as short amount of time either.

I think folks are fortunately trying to make educated guesses about what 'might' work best... and despite your opposition to my profession, I haven't heard any legitimate, anatomical or physiological reason from you as to why it wouldn't be potentially beneficial, ...likely more-so than hanging upside down. It doesn't take extraordinary lengths of time to see its benefit/effect if there will be one... so "time" doesn't seem to be the real factor here. Nor does it costs thousands of dollars that many other treatments do.

Gerbo, don't take any of this the wrong way. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, but I would appreciate if you could pay some respect to methods outside of your 'scientifically valid' box. You're entitled to use studies to formulate your opinions, but I'm also entitled to use studies, research, clinical evidence/experience and a working professional knowledge of human structure and function to formulate my opinions as well.

Why can't you just come on to a thread like this and say "That's good news, I'm glad it's going well for you. Can't wait to hear more.". Instead you have to point out that there is a "... lack of any validated scientific evidence." ...but best of luck anyhow! I think the parents involved know that already... Everyone here is doing their homework I'm sure and are making choices based on what makes sense. If you went to a chiropractor expecting bones to magically go where they were being forced to, then you were probably misleading yourself from the start... then the chiro took advantage doing whatever it is she did.

I just wish we could support people who are stepping outside the box a little... Who knows, maybe if enough people keep doing this with positive results we'll see the confines of that 'acceptable' box expand.

Regards,
Structural

[gerbo]

Structural; This is what I said

Ruth; nothing better then a first hand account of a certain method(which we have never had re SI) to help people making their mind up whether it is worth considering, despite the lack of any validated scientific evidence.

I hope so much for you and your child that it will prove to make a difference!

This is how you represented it;

Instead you have to point out that there is a "... lack of any validated scientific evidence." ......but best of luck anyhow

DELIBERATE AND INTENTIONAL MISREPRESENTATION IS A BAD HABIT AND YOU SHOULD TRY TO GET OUT OF IT

A worse habit, and you employ it quite frequent, is to use personal information gleaned from these pages, to stab and try to hurt in an unneccesary personal manner in order to try to win your arguments, I do not need pointing out that

And I guess if you feel that hanging upside down by your ankles is going to have a more precise effect

there is a lot parents will turn to in desparation, logical or illogical, scientific or not, and I would not pretend one moment to suggest to anybody that anything I do represents a garanteed path to a cure, and i will point out to anybody asking that there is a lack or absense of evidence in all these methods At least my osteopath is honest and will agree that there is no way of knowing whether anything she does will make any difference.

[stephanieC]

Gerbo,
Please don't let your anger for someone else put you off from answering and responding to people (me for example) We can all learn so much from eachother. When someone steps into that we must try to ignore it. please try too!! I am interested in what you have to say!! This reminds me of last weeks crazy posts where I wanted to yell and scream at Celia for her antics. You stepped in and defended her. When someone gets our goat, we should really try to ignore that part of it. I thought I chose the high road there.

Structural,
I am interested very much in what you have to say about SI. It sounds like something I may be interested in doing. Can you tell me more? Gerbo seems in favor of exploring alternative therapies. He, like me, is just skepical. I was skeptical of VBS too. Yet here I am, doing that for my older daughter I think you guys may misunderstand eachother sometimes???

Totally not looking for any type of arguement here!! Just information from different people with different thoughts.

Stephanie

[structural75]

Gerbo,

My apologies.. I was not intending to "misrepresent" you... You just gave a hopeful comment followed by an unsolicited and unnecessary disclaimer. I guess it's my problem really because it frustrates me to hear you constantly downgrading other approaches to 'wishful thinking' standards.... Instead of a reasonably educated decision with unknown outcomes. I'll retract those comments and chalk it up to my own frustrations here. Sorry... .

I'm also sorry if I came off as taking personal attack towards your situation... That was not meant to be the purpose of my comments. I was merely interested in knowing why you are SO critical of SI but then turn to use non-scientifically validated methods yourself? I'm not trying to insult or hurt you... I simply don't see the logic here??? And I think it's safe to say that most "alternative" approaches have not been extensively explored in a formal manner, if at all. As for now one can only use good judgment based on more than just studies, since studies are lacking for most of these things.

there is a lot parents will turn to in desperation, logical or illogical, scientific or not, and I would not pretend one moment to suggest to anybody that anything I do represents a garaunteed path to a cure, and i will point out to anybody asking that there is a lack or absence of evidence in all these methods At least my osteopath is honest and will agree that there is no way of knowing whether anything she does will make any difference.

I agree with your Osteopath 100%... . I also feel there are sound and reasonable non-scientifically validated options and not-so-sound or reasonable non-scientific options. Some have a better chance/potential/likelihood than others based on what they aim to do and how they go about doing it. Unfortunately, there will probably never be anything that works all the time for everyone. I'm just here sharing some possible/reasonable non-scientifically validated options (as far as scoliosis goes). What will happen when/if they are given a try in each case? I don't know.???

I'll be perfectly honest... If someone asked me what I thought was the most potentially beneficial approach to scoliosis, I'd tell them SI in the majority of ideopathic cases. Not because I'm trying to 'sell' anything, not because I practice it, not because I'm biased for any reason other than; it is the only discipline in existence today that has repeatedly changed the human body/structure in often dramatic fashion as no other approach has shown to be capable of doing... and in a relatively short intensive period of time. Until I come across something that can do that more effectively I will stand by that as my recommendation. There are plenty of studies to show that SI is not shy of the scientific process either... and those studies support the effects the work claims to create.

You said yourself to someone on another thread that SI and ____ have a hard time on this form, let alone other alternative methods. And I suppose they always will because they aren't scientifically validated yet because everyone is discouraged from trying them and therefore they will always be put on the curb while we continue to do the same things over and over again (or maybe do nothing at all and "wait").

I understand your frustrations and discouragement by unethical and deceitful practitioners of any discipline.. But I am not one of them... please hear that. I'm not trying to "win arguments" here... . I'd really prefer not to argue at all... and if that means not posting again for a few months so be it... I'll step away.

regards,
structural

[structural75]

Gerbo & Stephanie,
I apologize for stepping into your discussion. I'll just agree to disagree on some things and leave it at that. I think we do misunderstand one another sometimes... this can be a difficult medium to communicate idea through when there is so much emotion and passion involved.

No ill feelings from my end toward you personally Gerbo... It would be nice if parents on this forum didn't have to private message me to discuss SI because they are afraid that certain people will come on the attack about their choices or outcast them for thinking outside the box. It's hard for those parents to feel somewhat comfortable with their decision to try something alternative when people are constantly telling them there's no evidence and it's nothing more than wishful thinking.

I'd rather be a witness to support than an advocate for the minority here.

I'll leave you guys to your discussion... sorry for the sidetracking Stephanie.

best regards,
Structural

[rtremb]

After reading about Structural Integration (Rolfing) on this forum my husband spent an entire weekend reading every medical article he could on the subject. This led him to learn about fascia and how powerful it is. He read some articles on myofascial release and also about SI practioners who had had success straightening or partially straightening out scoliosis curves. I will ask him to find the links to the documents he read and put them on here so you can read them and judge for yourself.

Basically we learned that the fascia is very powerful. It exerts 2,000 pounds per square inch of pressure and that if this "power" can be activated by the right type of "massage" in the right places it can be harnessed to correct scoliosis (other things too but our interest was in its effect on scoliosis). The effects of the SI treatments continue for days after the sessions - the fascia continues to adjust in response to being activated. We did learn from our reading that it is very important that whoever is doing this treatment is a well qualified professional because if it is done wrong it can as disastrous as it would be beneficial to the scoliosis patient.

I don't know if explained this exactly right but you might be able to get the gist of why we decided to try this for our daughter. It is somewhat expensive -- $155.00 per hour and there will be at least 10 sessions however after yesterday I really believe we may be onto something which will help her. I guess only time will tell.

Ruth